A Delicate Watcher Reaction Situation...

[Spatula]

Well, I'm glad it (kinda) worked out. But honestly, I don't see how any of what you're saying is intrinsic to MHR. If you were playing some flavor of D&D, would you coup de grace fallen PCs every chance you get? If not, why are you holding back?

The reality of GMing is, the GM is almost always "holding back," because the GM always has the ability to say, "rocks fall, everyone dies."

[figurefour]

On the other hand, I can see where a player could get frustrated, especially if the bad guy didn't just knock them around and pose a threat, but actually took them out. I guess the best thing I can say about the whole situation is that you, as a Watcher, need to be able to read the frustration level of the players, and figure out when they are "fun frustrated" or when they are "upset frustrated."

To be fair, Graviton put enough of a hurt on me that I was taken out pretty fast in the NEXT action scene. (Graviton left me at d12 physical stress, and there was no transition scene in between!)

However, that wasn't really a problem since we had already gone through some scenes, and I had plenty of chances to kick ass.

If I got stressed out after taking the first action of the first scene . . . That would be pretty lame.

[RQShades]

Well, I'm glad it (kinda) worked out. But honestly, I don't see how any of what you're saying is intrinsic to MHR. If you were playing some flavor of D&D, would you coup de grace fallen PCs every chance you get? If not, why are you holding back?

The reality of GMing is, the GM is almost always "holding back," because the GM always has the ability to say, "rocks fall, everyone dies."

Well the thing is, "rocks fall, everyone dies" is DM fiat, not a D&D encounter. It has nothing to do with how the game works.

But now that you mention it, the D&D analogy actually works really well to illustrate what I'm talking about.

In D&D, the system defines what an appropriate encounter is for the heroes, and that system is balanced so that the heroes have a good shot at success against that appropriate encounter.

In MHRPG, the system doesn't define what an appropriate action scene is for the heroes, and the Watcher balances things in play so that the heroes have a good shot at success against whatever the Watcher deems an appropriate action scene.

Isn't that a pretty clear difference?

Incidentally, I've played D&D before, and villains using coup de grace on fallen PCs every chance they get usually ensures that the villains get killed. Taking some action other than a coup de grace usually isn't passing up an opportunity or pulling a punch - most of the time, that coup de grace simply doesn't make sense within the narrative or mechanics to do. In medeival warfare, you waited until the fight was over before you went around sticking bodies with your sword.

[Mailer33]

I'm surprised at the way everyone dog piled on the original poster. Well, here is my opinion. You did nothing wrong. Sounds like a fun session, and I think the reaction counter with the grappling hook was cool. I would have done the same thing and I have about 8 successful sessions under my belt so far.

Sometimes a player gets the crap kicked out of them--that's what these games are about. Otherwise, go watch a movie where the pacing is scripted to make sure the pacing is perfect and the good guy always wins.

D you get to step up counter reaction dice because of exceptional
Success? I've always assumed you can not.

[basspunk66]

Otherwise, go watch a movie where the pacing is scripted to make sure the pacing is perfect and the good guy always wins.

The problem with this statement is that the game is a group effort to have fun. Watching a movie, even in a group, is a basically solo affair. Unless you discuss the movie, I suppose. Point is, you are only approaching it for one side. As has been stated, there was nothing mechanically wrong with the reaction. As a matter of fact, had it simply been done later in the fight, it would have been awesome. Pacing IS required in a NARRATIVE driven game, since you are telling a story. No one cares about a movie when the climax is five minutes in.

[Sobran]

Honestly, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it, OP. I can see where you wouldn't exactly see it coming. Honestly, the book is kind of chopped up, I feel like, in terms of where any given information is written and the system itself isn't like anything I've played before.

That being said, I've been doing the GM thing for so many years, that I foresaw the weird doom pool economy and how that would affect things and was able to compensate for it. I can't blame you for not seeing that ahead of time. The fact that the doom pool very easily outnumbers the PP available to any individual player isn't something that is really addressed in the book itself. It sounds like you have a fair number of players as well, which only exacerbates the relative scale.

And now you know. I'm glad that you and the player reached a consensus about it pretty quickly.

[alai]

As a matter of fact, had it simply been done later in the fight, it would have been awesome. Pacing IS required in a NARRATIVE driven game, since you are telling a story. No one cares about a movie when the climax is five minutes in.

I had a similar thought, though I did wonder if that was being caused by too much Robin Laws in my diet. (Rising action, pass-fail, notoriously overworked second-act twist, yadda!) But some sort of buildup would have help line up people's expectations. (Watch those first three DP dice, they're a doozy...)

There's clearly also a tactical element to the DP. The art is to blend those in a way that makes sense for your group.

Another issue is how to describe the DP itself. A massive DP at the start of a scene should be telegraphed by some sort of scene-setting. Whether literally, in terms of collapsing buildings and screaming civilians, or in meta-narrative terms. (Cue up the Prokofiev, and preemptively pass the tissues.) There might be good dramatic reasons to stomp on someone out of a clear blue sky, but not generally by means of the Doom Pool, I'm thinking.

[Uziel]

I'm surprised at the way everyone dog piled on the original poster. Well, here is my opinion. You did nothing wrong. Sounds like a fun session, and I think the reaction counter with the grappling hook was cool. I would have done the same thing and I have about 8 successful sessions under my belt so far.

Sometimes a player gets the crap kicked out of them--that's what these games are about. Otherwise, go watch a movie where the pacing is scripted to make sure the pacing is perfect and the good guy always wins.

D you get to step up counter reaction dice because of exceptional
Success? I've always assumed you can not.

Really? You would have done the same thing during the first panel? I agree players do sometimes get the crap kicked out of them, but have you ever been the player who got aced during the first round? You then sit through everything else, just hanging out, waiting...As a player, it sucks.

Just because rules say you can do something, doesn't mean you should. The game is supposed to be fun for everybody.

[Mailer33]

Really? Yes, I would have done the same thing--this wasn't the first panel of the first game and if the doom pool was mega-big, it is likely the players weren't properly managing the doom pool in prior scenes--blowing off hay-makers and area attacks.

It would have played a bit different at my table though, because I don't step up counters based on exceptional success. It is possible I am wrong about that rule interpretation, and I intend to research it.

Doom pool economy WAY favors the players. You may get some big Doom Pools toward end of act, but players can generate way more PP power per turn than the DP because PP are way more valuable.

Additionally, there are seldom long term consequences for getting knocked out, so that players hero will be up and ready to fight by next transition. I do usually keep some cheap unlockable heroes handy for a player to grab if they get knocked out early, but honestly, player knock outs are rare because the game is balanced heavily in player favor.

As far as supposed to be fun for everyone--I have 4 players at my table who are having plenty of fun ten sessions in and its BECAUSE of the challenge, not despite it.

[Mailer33]

Okay, finally gave exceptional success a detailed re-read and yes, you do step up counters--so this might alter my approach somewhat n the reaction--I would have likely still went for the counter, but wouldn't have loaded it up high enough for an exceptional (depending on what the situation was--I wouldn't rule it out entirely)

Mainly though, I am left feeling that counter attacks are too powerful in relation to standard attacks. Without exceptional step ups, counters seem just right to me.