First Impressions and unanswered Questions

[RandomThoughts]

So, I got my copy of the core rulebook last night (courtesy to Amazon), and after some deep reading, I'd like to share my first impressions and my open questions.

First of all, I like the general approach taken by the game, as a fast paced action RPG meant to capture the essence of comic book action. I don't expect to actually get a chance to play the game, but I've always had a soft spot for superhero RPGs, and I wanted to see how this one turned out.

Like I said, I like the approach. I kind of worry that the actual decisions faced by the players during combat (and the game seems to focus pretty strongly on combat and little else - again, keeping in tone with the genre it deals with, so that's not a bad thing) will resolve more around abstract game mechanics than actual in-character decisions.

What I mean is this: You're Ms Marvel. You're fighting someone. In-character decisions would be, for instance, whether to blast the character from afar, go into melee, try a flying ram attack, etc. As a player, none of these decisions really matter. Generally speaking, you'd always end up rolling the same dice, no matter what your character ends up doing, unless of course you decide for the blast attack, which essentially means one of your dice is stepped down from a D10 to a D8. The actual decisions faced by the players, as far as I can see so far, will resolve around the proper use of plot points and how to get the best out of them - something completely alien to your character. As a result, immersion into the game and the character is facing hurdles.

On the other hand, neither does combat seem very tactically challenging. Leaving PPs aside for the moment, you pretty much figure out which combination of Powers gives you the best dice pool ("BDA" - Best Dice Available), and make sure you get to use said dice pool as much as possible. Which is, pretty much always, unless the GM brings up a specific counter for your combo.

Let's take Spiderman as an example, for the moment. Leaving Affiliation and Distinctions out, the BDA on offense are pretty much Specialty (Combat Expert) and the best available powers for both powersets, so most likely Reflexes and Webshooters combined (for a total of D10+D8+D8+misc). In the comics, Spiderman used to punch and kick his foes a lot, most likely because his physical power is higher than the impact of gooey webfluid. Doesn't matter, in the game any attack that doesn't make use of the webbing looses a dice and thereby power / effect.

In other words: Again, making a decision that makes sense in-character (punching the other guy to deliver more damage) actually has the opposite effect in game terms. And worse, there isn't really much of a decision in game terms, as one of them is Strictly Better (to borrow a term from another game).

Now, clever use of PPs might change all of that, I guess, providing a tactical depth that isn't there otherwise, but I haven't really had time to get into PPs and their impact yet.

---

The next thing that bothered me, generally speaking, was the selection of characters. I get it, the book is built around a specific Event, so the players will find everything they need for that Event in a single tome (rules, characters, the necessary game master information, etc). And the selection isn't bad, generally speaking:
There have been four pillars/corners of the Marvel universe for a long time: The X-Men, the FF, the Avengers and the New York City street level characters. All of those are presented - but it seems a weird choice to me to focus exclusively at the line-up at a specific point in time. Armor? Really? With far more iconic characters like Thor and Hulk missing? Honestly, which do you think players care more about? Third tier characters they probably don't even know if they didn't follow the specific series at the time, or first tier icons with a huge fan base?

It's even worse for the villains. Carnage is pretty much the only villain in the whole book I'm vaguely familiar with or interested in. I just think ... if you want to focus on events, make scenario books for those, but I'd treat the core rulebook as the tool-box with all the common tools players want to use most.

---

Moving on, I'd like to share my thoughts on some of the characters provided in the book:

Captain America

BDA Offense of 10+8+8 (Combat Master, Reflexes, Weapon) and BDS Defense of 12+10+8 (Combat Master, Reflexes, Duration 12 from shield). Really? That's better offense and better defense than anyone else in the book, and we're talking about a guy in human peak condition standing next to:

The Thing and Collossus

Both share BDAs of 12+8 on both Offense and Defense (Combat Expert and either Strength or Duration), making them the most physically powerful characters after Cap. Feels pretty right, I believe, except that they should both take second row compared to:

Sentry

Pretty much Marvel's grittier version of Superman, far more powerful than anyone else in the book, but somehow he ends up with less Strength and Durability than both the Thing and Collossus. Sure, he can boost both of them (at a price), but even with that boost he ends up on the same level as those two (and somehow inferior to Cap). Also, what happened to the Energy Blasts mentioned in the flavor text right next to the stats? Somehow it didn't make it into the actual power list???

I'm also still wondering how exactly you double a power. What does Unleash do? Do you double the result of the dice, or do you get to add another dice for free, or what does it mean?

Ironman

Ironman poses another set of problems. In order to become halfway decent (and live up to his reputation of one of the stronger heroes), he depends on some pretty "creative" combos.

Without a combat Specialty and no defensive power in his Weapon Platform Powerset, we end up with meager 8+8 BDA on offense (Reflexes and Repulsor) and 10 BDA on defense (Durability).

A bit of creativity goes a long way in this case:
Count Tech Master for every maneuver and stunt, with the justification that Tony constantly adjusts the armor systems, and you get a +10 on both BDAs. Next, explain the character uses his flight power to perform evasive aireal maneuvers, and you get another +10 on your defensive BDA, and add flying ram maneuvers (Flight + Strength) to your offensive arsenal, and suddenly we end up with a far more powerful Ironman (10+10+10 on both offensive and defensive), but we're bending the rules quite a bit now.

Human Torch

The situation is even worse for Johnny Storm. Like Ironman, he lacks a combat-suitable Specialty, and using Vehicle Expert seems just too far fetched to me; sure, a trained pilot would be able to execute evasive maneuvers better, but still...

In other words, Johnny ends up with a single D10 in both offensive and defensive BDA, and that again depends on Flight for aerial combat...

Cyclops

Apparently one of the weakest characters in the whole book. His offensive BDA is pretty much average with 10+8 (Combat Expert and Optic Blast), but what about his defense? If I read the rules correctly, he gets a single D8 for Weapon Expert (plus the usual from Affiliation and Distinction), which makes him pretty much a teeth-less glass cannon...

Again, I've got a "creative" solution: Allow Optic Blasts to be used defensively as well. Knock enemies back, deflect incoming missiles from their current vector, counterattack other guys with ranged powers by shooting them before they get to shoot you. Actually, I think this might work surprisingly well, making Cyclops the Master Blaster he was always portrayed as. Doesn't exactly make him more than average in power, but still, might be interesting to watch in game. Just, you know, it keeps breaking the rules...

[Beast]

If you get a chance to play the game, a lot of your issues will fall by the sidelines. Especially when you look at the various ways to attack your foes, not just the straight physical slugfest variety. Plus the game for the first time really captures the feel of a Comic Book... since the dice pools really allow you to have these amazing come from behind against overwhelming odds instances if you roll well enough.

As for the character selection, Armor was included because she was a member of the Astonishing X-Men team at the time. Everyone in the book was, so that's why they're included. Hulk and Thor were not because at the time of Breakout, Hulk was off-world with the Planet Hulk storyline and Thor was technically dead due to Ragnarok.

And comic fans and players like different things. Outside of Beast, most of my favorite characters are fairly obscure or at best secondary characters. Hell... right now in the campaign I'm in I'm playing Loony Leo. A character from Astro City that pretty much outside of Cameos appeared in a SINGLE ISSUE. I've also played characters like Sam Simeon, Beak, and so on. I love the lesser characters. They're fun.

Also, some of your de-construction of the various characters misses the mark in a lot of ways. Like I said above, you really don't have a full grasp of the system as of yet. Some of the stats may not seem to make sense now, but you're either not thinking outside of the box enough or you haven't really given much thought as to how building dice pools work. For characters that don't have Combat Master, you often can use a different Speciality in your dice pool. Example, Iron Man... you use Tech Master.

Example: Cap w/ his shield has stood up to blows from the Hulk. Without crushing Cap beneath it. So yes, his shield should give him a damn good resistance at times. You just arn't thinking outside the box enough in how to interpret things. Also, remember, just because a offense or defense like Cap's seems weak or powerful... the end result depends on the dice pool rolls. One time, Cap may withstand a blow from The Hulk... the next time his arms are shattered by the blow. Welcome to Comic Books!

Also, all the things you are saying like allowing Cyclops to use his Optic Blasts defensively... are possible. Hell, they're encouraeged. That's the point of the dice pool... to get players to think differently and creatively when dealing with situations. If a player can legitimately explain how they're doing something in a scene... guess what, They can do it! Whether the Dice says they succeed or fail is another thing. But that's Comics.

[chaosnet]

It also depends on the mindset that you and your group have. If the goal of having fun is to min/max, then that is fine and this probably isnt the system that best accomodates that mindset. If the goal of having fun is to play a character, foibles and all and use that to propel your character's actions then this system does that.

Neither approach is right or wrong as fun is subjective.

Putting together a BDA only tells part of the story of that character as it doesnt factor in things such as SFX and Limits. BDAs would also depend on the situation, so it cannot be calculated without referencing said situation.

Keep in mind that I am not a mindless fanboy, but as a veteran of gaming for some...umm...30 years I have gone through phases of complication in games. This game is simple at first glance, but begins to layer in complexity and flexibility as you get to understand the system more and more.

One of my players stated to me, "what does the Wasp contribute to the Avengers when there is Iron Man, Thor, Hulk and other powerhouses?", my reply in metagame terms "someone wanted to play the Wasp, does that mean that she should be insignificant?"

In this game, EACH character will have similar die pool creation mechanics. This being the case, a Thor character can fight alongside a Wasp character and both can contribute equally. If it were min/maxed, Thor would be a 1000pt character and Wasp would be 100pts. What fun would there to be Wasp? Or Cap? Or Iron Man? Or...most of the other Avengers when Thor's 1000pt build probably equals the sum total of all other Avengers?

The fun is the flexibility of the system, the fun is the narratives created, the fun is figuring out builds. Ultimately the fun is ALWAYS what YOUR group wants...combat? Story driven? Character driven? I think this game CAN hit all milestones.

As far as releasing 'important' characters, aside from the fact that the Breakout Event is the prominent story line, if YOU were in business would you give all of the goodies out from go, or would you slowly roll out content to keep the $$$ coming in?

It still is a business.

[Beast]

Chaosnet brings up an excellent example...

Look at Wasp. In most game systems, she'd probably be effectively uselss duue to her size, stats, and such compared to folks like Thor or Hulk. There would be little to encourage someone to play her, regarless if they loved the character. But look at Ultimates or Ultimate Avengers (the toon), Wasp flys into Hulk's ear and delivers some of her bio-stings. This game system really allows for the character to pull off something creative like that due to the Dice Pool and how you build it. Rather than do something like roll against a Percentage Scale to make your attack.

Like I said above, this game system really for the first time captures the feel of a comic book. Where one moment you're losing against overwhelmng odds... and you fight back against it and triumph. Anything that makes sense in comic book terms is possible in the game. As long as the player is willing to think outside the box and not focus so much on concrete stats. Because it's freeform and flexible to allow for characters of all power levels to co-exist and contribute to the team and the story.

[Grimmshade]

I find that MHR brings the characters to life more than any other Supers RPG I have played. When I teach people to play the game, I give a very brief Dice Pool and general mechanics overview. then I tell them that when they want to do something, don't look at their sheet. Just say what that hero would do. After that, I have them look at their datafile and build a Dice Pool. I basically never let anyone take an action when that action is created by staring at their datafile rather than just narrating an action for the character. (I'm not THAT harsh, but you get the idea.)

Things like adding in Tech Master to Iron Man's actions isnt "bending the rules", its how the rules work. Most of your breakdowns of the characters fall into this trap.

As for Tactical combat, I have seen players who take the time to build stunts, assets, and complications, as well as play off other characters action or teamwork function much better than the player who constantly states "I punch him."

As was already said, I think you would need to actually play the game with a group. I can read the recipe for a pie, but I can't complain about how it tastes till I bake and eat one.

[Alienmastermind]

Would I give away all the goodies?
Well, just as a for example: DC Adventures gave away the iconic and fan-favorite goodies, then expounded upon them later. As a purchaser of this game both in pdf and hard copy (and will buy the Premium Civil War set to get another basic rulebook) I was disappointed there wasn't a datafile on the Hulk.

My assumption at the announcement at GenCon last year was that the first book would be based on the 199999 Universe, rather than the 616 Universe, since The Avengers was coming out in the same year. I pointed to HeroClix as an example -- which had both Spider-Man and X-Men in the first set. Insuring that they were available for fans of the movies (even giving out Spider-Man Clix at the premiere of the trailer at SDCC!) -- it just made sense to me, that if it's a purely money-based decision, that MWP would WANT to have the characters from the Avengers movie available to players.

But then I read the book, and realized it ain't all about money, it's actually about reproducing the feel of Marvel comics around the table, which means that things like The Hulk ain't always available.

There's a very cynical imp that lives in my brain though, that peeps 'Oh, you know WHY Hulk and Thor aren't in there? Because they can't stat them out and have a balanced game. That EASILY answers the age-old supers gaming question, how do you get Hulk and Wasp to be balanced on the same team? You don't include them, then cite a creative reason to leave them out'.'

My cynical imp is a jerk.

Because when I look at the sets planned: Age of Apocalypse, Anihillation, and Civil War -- no Thor. No Hulk.

Again, I plan on buying these books, but dang if my imp doesn't gain traction with me a little.

UPDATE: Cam Banks was on my buddy Mike's podcast and said that Thor and Hulk will be made available. Take that, STUPID IMP!

[Beast]

Re: Hulk and Thor...

That's what the upcoming DLC is for.
And Thor as Clor/Ragnarok will be in the Civil War book anyway.

Heroclix is a different animal. Especially given there's so many characters who haven't been made yet. Or even made well in years. Where as this sort of game seems to want to deliver not only the A-Listers but also the B and C's.

As noted above, don't worry about Hulk and Thor. They're coming soon. And the game is designed so that there's a strange comic book sense of balance where all characters including Thor and Hulk can fight along with Wasp and such and not her seem useless to the team or in the fight. So have no fear of that.

[Alienmastermind]

Post updated. Imp kicked in the butt. Yeah, Mike (Lafferty) of the BAMF podcast schooled me via chat just a moment ago!

Dan

[allenshock]

The Sentry in the Breakout event (and in the Basic Game book) is Sentry before Emma Frost unlocked his memories and the full potential of his power. I'm sure the next datafile done for Sentry will look a bit different

Allen

[Battlechimp]

I was thinking about doing a whole long post pointing out how and where looking at the character files in a vacuum and further just looking at power dice codes really misses the mark... but I'll just go with stating that it really misses the mark.

Dice codes aren't the real source of power in the game. That honor rests solely with Plot Points. A character with a reasonable dice pool but a pile of PP will dominate a stronger character who doesn't have any.

In fact, let's take Cyclops... He is so totally not a looser. He has been one of the strongest characters in my home game so far. He has 1 really strong Distinction which is almost always applicable (Tactical Genius) and 1 that flips really easily from positive to negative (I Don't Have Time For This) and a respectable d10 power coupled with 3 of the better SFX - Ricochet, Versatile, and Area Attack. With a few Plot Points he combo's things together really easily and can, without much effort, drop 2d10+6d8 (or 3d10+5d8 off an opportunity) drop highest, keep 3 for just 2 PP; or he can do 1d10+6d8+?d6 (2d10+5d8+?d6) area attack and shoot everything. Another PP or 2 is enough to often push the results high enough to step up the effect die once or twice per target.

Also, the Human Torch is a bit at a disadvantage without a combat applicable specialty, but multi-power still means he's often throwing 2d8 for his power so he's not totally crappy. And he also gets Area Attack. However, Johnny is a MONSTER if he needs to be - for 1 PP, for a round or two, he can throw 2d12 or 4d10 or 6d8 off his power alone; and if he wanted to invest 2 more PP it can be 6d12 for an action. Nova Flame means he can incinerate almost anything when he REALLY wants to.

A lot of the characters, despite a seemingly low power level, have a way to push an "I Win!" button. But they're powered by Plot Points. That's where real power in MHR is.