First Impressions and unanswered Questions

[Beast]

Ugh.. power gamers. Thankfully my group seems pretty sane.

We've got a pretty diverse group right now. Nobody too powerful, and everyone has had a real chance to shine. Gotta be the weirdest team ever assembled though.

[RandomThoughts]

I want to thank all of you for your time ans effort. I realize I came across more like a jerk than was really my intention. I actually understand a lot of the arguments you're making, but for some weird reason I can't really get across what I mean myself. Might be because I don't really have my own thoughts in order yet, might be problems with the language, I'm not really sure.

Anyway, trying to respond to a few of your comments:
Intention is, if I should ever get the chance to do it, to use the system with existing Marvel characters, but using original story lines, some inspired by existing comic books, others not.

I strongly believe in top-down world-building. The well known, iconic stuff is set in stone, but the more obscure a detail gets, the more I feel entitled to change it or ignore it entirely. Or, to put it differently, my intention is always that my players should recognize the worlds I present to them. They shouldn't run into situations where the world I describe contradicts what they know about that world.

The reason I'm asking for generic profiles for the major characters is related to that. Not sure I have the language to really explain why, though. It's like, I want to hand the players the big stuff, the stuff they are already familiar, but also the stuff I consider essential, and then work around that and fill in everything else myself.

Now, regarding tactics, I am pretty sure I contradicted myself at least a few times, because there are really different things I could enjoy, not just one, and I tried to figure out if or how many are met here.
Essential requirement number 1 is pretty much: Players have options and meaningful decisions each "turn". From what I gather, this is the case, with attacks vs. assists/distractions/non-damage combat actions, various uses for Plot Points, SFXes, etc. Essentially, I want combat to be interesting because player decisions make a difference. This is where my "obsession" with "best dice available" comes in. I fear that the game mechanics reward players that use their best dice available all the time. To make an example, Spiderman as published gets more (and therefore better) dice if he can work in powers from both his powersets. And that means, since Reflexes are pretty much a universal include, that he should always use his web, no matter how, because not using it means he'll give up a D8 for no reason at all. Now, perhaps this is all wrong in the first place, if so, please let me know, but if that is true, then we're not talking hard-core powergaming here, but pretty much common sense. I'd expect the people I socialize with to figure that out by their third session at the latest, and adjust their game accordingly.

Now, to put that discussion regarding power levels to rest, what I mean is more or less this: If Spiderman meats a raging Hulk, he should know he's in over his head from the first moment on, if Daredevil runs into a raging Namor, he should be glad to fight him to a standstill, and Cap shouldn't have better raw attacks and defenses that the Thing or Collossus. Perhaps that's all in the book and I just didn't realize it, yet, if so, great!

Now, the thing with plot points. Kind of reminds me of the way Focus works in Warmachine, which I really enjoy, a steady stream of power that can be used in different ways to boost rolls and impact the game. The thing about focus is, it is represented inside the game. I can have a short OT discussion with another player on how to use my Focus, but I could do the same in character if I wanted to. I somehow don't see that working with plot points..

When I talk about PPs being rare, unless the game master actually activates opportunities (if that's the term, 1s rolled by players), there's pretty much a 1 PP per turn limit, and that already depends on players forfeiting a D8 for a D4.

So yeah, what I hope for is pretty much a fast-paced simple action/combat game for light-hearted game sessions that can be used for PC-vs-PC slugfests as well, if everyone feels like it.

[Beast]

And again... you're just looking at the character sheets without any real context to how the game actually operates. It doesn't matter how many dice you manage to include in your pool in the end. Someone rolling 8 dice could lose to someone rolling 3. Which is how the game kind of helps balance various power levels. Because not every die you roll is added to the final results. So like in comics you can have people like Spider-Man pulling out the rare win against folks like Juggernaut or Firelord. Or Beak beating Beast.

Considering you comment again about Plot Points being rare, seems to suggest you don't want to look at anything but tossing as many of the largest dice into your pool as possible. Using one of your distinctions as a D4 for the Plot Point is one of the best things you really can do. And I really don't get your issue with Plot Points. Why would you need to have an IC discussion about Plot Points? If you're roleplaying there's a lot you don't discuss. The issue you have with the idea just leaves me scratching my head.

[Supplanter]

I want to thank all of you for your time ans effort. I realize I came across more like a jerk than was really my intention. I actually understand a lot of the arguments you're making, but for some weird reason I can't really get across what I mean myself. Might be because I don't really have my own thoughts in order yet, might be problems with the language, I'm not really sure.

This is manful or womanful of you to say and appreciated.

I suspect this game is not for you, but a couple of notes re your restated concerns follow.

The reason I'm asking for generic profiles for the major characters is related to that. Not sure I have the language to really explain why, though. It's like, I want to hand the players the big stuff, the stuff they are already familiar, but also the stuff I consider essential, and then work around that and fill in everything else myself.

I honestly think it's no longer possible to have generic profiles or essential (in the sense of the German word echt) setting material, because everything's been reinterpreted to a farethewell both within comics themselves and out across other media.

But if you do believe it not only can be done but is essential to your enjoyment of a superhero game that it come with the generic profiles and essential setting stuff done for you, then you should write this game off and stop worrying about it. You are not ever going to get that from MHRP. Not because nobody has asked sincerely enough yet, or as many times as it takes to finally get them to give in and produce that for everybody, but because MWP's deal with Marvel is to produce event-focused material.

You have not failed to find sufficient eloquence to convince them they are wrong to omit this stuff. So do not blame yourself. Event-based material is the plan and it's going to stay the plan. We either game within and around that plan, or we bail. I'm okay with the plan because I like the system, and while I thought Civil War as a storyline was seven kinds of stupid and don't care about the Age of Apocalypse one whit, I can use the material to my own ends. And Annhilation and Conquest were pretty freaking cool.

To make an example, Spiderman as published gets more (and therefore better) dice if he can work in powers from both his powersets. And that means, since Reflexes are pretty much a universal include, that he should always use his web, no matter how, because not using it means he'll give up a D8 for no reason at all. Now, perhaps this is all wrong in the first place, if so, please let me know, but if that is true, then we're not talking hard-core powergaming here, but pretty much common sense.

It's not altogether wrong. People who regret that aspect - and I kind of do! - adopt a pretty minor house rule: Instead of one free power trait from each set, two free power traits from any set.

Also, SFXs and Limits, including but not limited to Shutdowns, scramble up the best-die calculation for a number of heroes. Actually playing Iron Man, for instance, involves what I call "conducting the Shutdown symphony" and is a ton of fun.

Now, to put that discussion regarding power levels to rest, what I mean is more or less this: If Spiderman meats a raging Hulk, he should know he's in over his head from the first moment on, if Daredevil runs into a raging Namor, he should be glad to fight him to a standstill, and Cap shouldn't have better raw attacks and defenses that the Thing or Collossus. Perhaps that's all in the book and I just didn't realize it, yet, if so, great!

There's more of power-level variation than you think. Particularly when you take into account the Unleashed SFX, you end up with suprisingly many potential gradations of power. But there may also be less than you want. Comic-book creators have gotten a lot more casual about variations in power levels since - well, I'm not quite sure, but my guess is it started in the era of the superstar artist (early 1990s) and continued into the, well, Bendis era. MHRP reflects the current praxis pretty well.

Now, the thing with plot points. Kind of reminds me of the way Focus works in Warmachine, which I really enjoy, a steady stream of power that can be used in different ways to boost rolls and impact the game.

I don't know what that is.

The thing about focus is, it is represented inside the game. I can have a short OT discussion with another player on how to use my Focus, but I could do the same in character if I wanted to. I somehow don't see that working with plot points.

It doesn't. You're either okay with players stepping out of actor stance in an RPG, in which case MHRP is a dandy system for collaborative story-making, or you abhor it, in which case it's just not for you. And as with the event model of publication, it is what it is. MWP produces games with a lot of player authoring and very hands-on system elements. They didn't do this by mistake, and you're not going to explain them into "fixing" that, because Cortex Plus games are written by and for people who don't consider that to be broken in the first place.

This is the biggest reason why I think the game is not for you, beyond the event-model aspect.

When I talk about PPs being rare, unless the game master actually activates opportunities (if that's the term, 1s rolled by players), there's pretty much a 1 PP per turn limit, and that already depends on players forfeiting a D8 for a D4.

I started to write, "that's correct as far as it goes," but then I realized it's not.

WIthout Watcher cooperation, your limit is 1PP per roll. Because you can also choose to roll a D4 Distinction on any reaction rolls you make, and you're likely to make at least one of those per turn too, and possibly more. Even if those are the only PPs you ever get, that still enables you to make a "max effort" every second or third turn - IOW, once or twice per typical combat. That jibes with my story sense of how often a fictional character should be able to make a max effort.

So, with that amendment to what you wrote, I'll add: I've never seen a Watcher who declines to activate any opportunities, and I've played the game with (counts in head) four-ish different Watchers, and talked with friends who have played with twice that many more. I activate the vast majority of opportunities possible myself when I'm Watcher-ing, even though my minor claim to fame in these fora is a suspicion of large Doom Pools.

What's more, I can't see, conceptually, any Watcher choosing not to activate any, or even most, opportunities. Cause Watchers need some Doom Dice. This is not a game where GMs can do whatever they want whenever they want. (Try to find a version of "Rule Zero" in the book. It ain't there. And by the way, this will also be a deal-breaker for a big slice of the hobby: maybe you! The GM is herself subject to rules.) A Watcher without Doom Dice is like Haweye with an empty quiver. Yeah, you can hit people with your bow, but we're both gonna be bored.

So yeah, what I hope for is pretty much a fast-paced simple action/combat game for light-hearted game sessions that can be used for PC-vs-PC slugfests as well, if everyone feels like it.

So, on my soapbox a minute. I have many good years of Amber Diceless RPG under my belt, and a few bad ones. (I ran a PBEM that flamed out so spectacularly it's still mostly too painful to discuss.) IMHO, if you want "light-hearted . . . PC-vs-PC slugfests" then you damned well do want to encourage players to spend a fair amount of time outside of an immersive perspective. Otherwise, in my experience, you don't get the light-hearted part. My own Cortex Plus hack is centered around inter-PC conflict, but it's also builds deliberately "metagame-y" decision-making into the rules for players, so everyone has a saving critical distance on the action.


Jim

[N01H3r3]

This is where my "obsession" with "best dice available" comes in. I fear that the game mechanics reward players that use their best dice available all the time. To make an example, Spiderman as published gets more (and therefore better) dice if he can work in powers from both his powersets. And that means, since Reflexes are pretty much a universal include, that he should always use his web, no matter how, because not using it means he'll give up a D8 for no reason at all.

The key, I feel, is remembering that the narrative is defined before the dice are picked up. Consequently, the "best dice available" aren't fixed, because context determines which dice are applicable to a given situation.

To return to your Spider-Man example... should Spidey find himself face-to-face with a raging Hulk, brute force tactics are unlikely to work (because Hulk shrugs off almost everything), and simply webbing Hulk up is unlikely to succeed either (place a Webbed complication, taking advantage of the Grapple SFX), as Hulk will break out of the webbing easily (as, in this case, we're dealing with a Watcher character with a d12 die applied to the task of removing a complication). In this instance, Spider-Man's "best available dice" are limited by the player's ability to think around the situation and describe a way in which those traits are useful within this context.

[Supplanter]

To return to your Spider-Man example... should Spidey find himself face-to-face with a raging Hulk, brute force tactics are unlikely to work (because Hulk shrugs off almost everything), and simply webbing Hulk up is unlikely to succeed either (place a Webbed complication, taking advantage of the Grapple SFX), as Hulk will break out of the webbing easily (as, in this case, we're dealing with a Watcher character with a d12 die applied to the task of removing a complication). In this instance, Spider-Man's "best available dice" are limited by the player's ability to think around the situation and describe a way in which those traits are useful within this context.

Actually, it's not such a bad option!

The Hulk can remove the webbing for free, but it costs him his action to do so. That's an action where he's not grinding you into Spider-Paste in the pestle of his fury. Meanwhile you, as Spider-Man, hopefully picked up a PP (or more) on your roll.

This kind of delaying action is the sort of thing a character like Spider-Man does a lot of when fighting the Hulk.

Note, though, that this is a pretty clear example of genuine power disparities between characters driving play, which rebuts another of RT's stated concerns: lack of power disparities.


Jim

[Spatula]

I realize I came across more like a jerk than was really my intention.

I don't think you came across as a jerk, but you are making a lot of assumptions that show some misunderstandings of how the game works. You'd probably be better off grabbing a buddy and doing a test run.

I fear that the game mechanics reward players that use their best dice available all the time. To make an example, Spiderman as published gets more (and therefore better) dice if he can work in powers from both his powersets. And that means, since Reflexes are pretty much a universal include, that he should always use his web, no matter how, because not using it means he'll give up a D8 for no reason at all. Now, perhaps this is all wrong in the first place, if so, please let me know, but if that is true, then we're not talking hard-core powergaming here, but pretty much common sense. I'd expect the people I socialize with to figure that out by their third session at the latest, and adjust their game accordingly.

The Spider-Man thing is an issue, IMO, although it's one that could probably be fixed by removing "Weapon" and "Durability" from his web-shooter power set. Because the thing is, the action has to make sense within the narrative. If the Watcher attacks Spider-Man with the Ringleader's hypnotic mind-control, Spider-Man doesn't get reflexes and he doesn't get his web-shooters. If Spider-Man is standing toe-to-toe with the Sandman, he can't hit Sandman while swinging on a webline - they're already on top of each other!

The other aspect is, that after 4 dice, adding more dice to your dice pool gives you diminishing returns. Unless you're going to be spending PP to pump up your total or add effect dice, those extra dice are nice but not really necessary.

When I talk about PPs being rare, unless the game master actually activates opportunities (if that's the term, 1s rolled by players)

There's no reason for the Watcher to not activate player opportunities. The supply of PP is unlimited.

So yeah, what I hope for is pretty much a fast-paced simple action/combat game for light-hearted game sessions that can be used for PC-vs-PC slugfests as well, if everyone feels like it.

That's what MHR is!

[chaosnet]

One thing that I spotted from the OP was that they use a "top down" method of world building, but stated earlier that the players werent really comic fans outside of the movie Marvels.

I think that this is a flawed position because it is almost always much easier from a GM standpoint to think of the world as concentric circles with the players in the middle. As they discover, or need to know additional things then them move outward to the next circle and continuing in this way exposes the world for what it is. This way, nothing is truly 'set in stone', if my players didnt know that Captain America got "killed", then I could run a similar storyline with a character that was closer to the players than Cap.

Earth 616 is the main Marvel world, but you dont have to play that world to the letter. My gameworld is set in 2052, well past the lives of certain heroes who may have died, retired, or had others take up their mantles. To date, not a single "Marvel" has made an appearance...yet, but they will.

Being 40 years in the future, certain long lived Marvels will definitely make themselves known, but initially with my player created characters I wanted the story to be about them.

Also, on the BDA I have to agree with the rest of my community here: "BDA" is entirely situational. Just because you have 2 power sets doesnt automatically justify them being situational in every action. Spidey's Super Reflexes should NOT be in every actions as there are n number of actions where his reflexes wouldnt matter...the same can be said for his webshooters. The story and narrative decides what traits are used to build the pool, that being said Spidey may want to stay in his comfort zone (outside in an open area) where he can get the benefit of his Reflexes and Webshooters, but his want and the narrative of the story shouldnt always mesh.

Lastly, there was nothing 'jerkish' about you stating your opinion. Just like the rest of us, you have concerns and hopefully some of us who have Watchered games can give the benefit of our experience.

[RandomThoughts]

Again, I want to thank all of you for your patience. I really appreciate the effort you're putting into this, even tough I actually expected to be banned or something for the way I set this thread up.

Now one quick thing. Regarding the notion that this game might not be for me, whether true or not, I think it's too early to decide that. It does indeed seam as if the game as published, that is the printed book I hold in my hands right now, is not for me.

Adding a) characters I consider essential, either from this site (which seems pretty easy, from what I can tell), or by tweaking them myself should actually patch up one of my biggest concerns. House-ruling some stuff I consider broken (read: "not for me") should do the rest.
Jim, I actually came up with the same I idea you mentioned on my own, allowing the use of two appropriate powers per roll, no matter if they belong to the same powerset or not. I don't mind putting some extra work in and adjusting a game to my needs, but I wold have preferred if that wasn't necessary.

N01H3r3, I fully understand how specific situations will change the Available Dice, I am fully aware that Reflexes and Body Armor won't help a thing against, say, telepathy (pun not intended). I guess I should have specifically mentioned this, but what I'm talking about is generic action-sequency physical combat, which (please correct me if I'm wrong!) is the most common combat by far in most super-hero settings.

Now, obviously, GMs can always create scenarios in which certain powers won't be useful, but I'm much rather prefer if they don't have to in order to make the game interesting.

Regarding Plot Points, I thank you for correcting me, I didn't understand that 1s pretty much equal free plot points (for all the reasons you have given).

Spatula, regarding numbers of dice, I fully understand that the only dice that count on most rolls are just the highest 3 to 4. However, the more dice you add, the bigger your chances are to get good results on those 3 to 4 dice that actually count. Or did I miss something?

Jim, in response to your soap-box: I think I understand what you're talking about. I just don't see the need for it in the groups I tend to assemble. I choose most of my players carefully to fit the story and style of what I want to do with any given game, so not really an issue here. (And Beast, I share your sentiment against Powergamers; I cleansed my groups of those years ago.) In response to my own point, I just think it's better if the tactical decisions made by the players are also visible to their characters / visible inside the gaming world.

Not really sure I can articulate my thoughts here, but I get more enjoyment out of the story if important tactical decisions and clever moves can be described as part of the story. Someone using four of his remaining five plot points in a truly brilliant way to turn a losing battle around by pulling off a really clever sequence of actions and/or events is a good story in its own right, and when I tell it, I want that brilliance in there, as a homogenous element.

I'll probably end up borrowing the term "Focus" from Warmachine and explain it as concentration/inspiration/ingenuity on the side of the characters.
"Fully focused on the task at hand Ms Marvel did this and this and then this" and so on. It's just a personal preference, I guess.

Chaosnet, using original characters is out of the question for me. The reason to pick up the game would be, essentially, the love for the existing Marvels.

Spatula, you also suggest I'm overthinking this and I should just play a few games with a buddy and see how it works. That's nor really going to work for us. We already got limited gaming time, including RPGs, board games, tabletops, etc. When we do pick up something extra, we usually try to work out the flaws beforehand, to get the most of the time together. That means whoever brings a new board game s expected to know the rules and be able to explain them in a comprehensible way, and should I ever get some of the guys to try out MSR, I'll need to have a good understanding how it works and to have ironed out the worst flaws before.

[N01H3r3]

N01H3r3, I fully understand how specific situations will change the Available Dice, I am fully aware that Reflexes and Body Armor won't help a thing against, say, telepathy (pun not intended). I guess I should have specifically mentioned this, but what I'm talking about is generic action-sequency physical combat, which (please correct me if I'm wrong!) is the most common combat by far in most super-hero settings.

Now, obviously, GMs can always create scenarios in which certain powers won't be useful, but I'm much rather prefer if they don't have to in order to make the game interesting.

I don't personally regard the idea of a "generic" scene as existing outside of the purely hypothetical - every scene has quirks and elements that will cause it to deviate from the norm and the fundamental interactions between different characters inherently draw any situation away from a hypothetical 'average'. A pair of muggers late at night is a different situation to an armed robbery, which is in turn different to an all-out brawl between two heroes (before they inevitably team up to confront a common foe).

Every situation is specific, and consequently has an impact upon the traits relevant to the situation. In my experience, action scenes in RPGs are defined heavily by their context, and that seems to be particularly evident in Marvel Heroic Roleplay. Certain approaches and certain traits will naturally be more or less useful in different situations and against different adversaries... this much is inevitable.