The Fantastic Four got screwed

[Mad Thinker]

I've been looking at playing the Human Torch in a game, and he seems to have nice dice pools.

One die for affiliation, on average say a D8.

He's got three D10 powers; fit any two together with Multipower for a 2D8. For example, throwing and shaping a flame blast, or flying and shaping his flame trail.

Add a distinction or specialty for another D8:
Hot Headed Hero - dive into action without thinking, attack someone who attacked him or otherwise made him mad.
Never Grows Up - define an attack as prank-like, say a hot foot.
Tech Expert - melt the bad guy's equipment
Cosmic Expert - vs. anything alien or extradimensional.

So that's a 4D8 pool; the two highest should be a reasonable roll, one D8 for effect, and he can afford to lose one with a roll of 1.

He can also add area effect; roll 4D8 + 2D6, and get three enemies with D8 or at least D6 effects.

There's a wide variety of possible effects: physical stress (burned, or just passed out from the heat), emotional stress (scare them with fire), complications (fire cage, hot foot), attacks on powers (melt equipment, localized burns), assets (flame double), etc.

And when he really needs to pull out the stops, there's the nova flame.

[chaosnet]

I can see Johnny Awesome's point though...

...wouldnt the Torch's Energy Casting skill be represented by Combat Expert? Energy Casting is his "style" of Combat and since he has only "mastered" a single style it would be expert.

The argument is related to my thoughts on Hawkeye's Combat Mastery which gives me chills. I get that he's an awesome archer and a good hand to hand guy, but Mastery? Dunno...I get that archery = one style, mixed martial arts = another style(s), but still...

I think the D6 Rookie Rule is a great addition for those folks that have had "some training", or through experience have learned where to stand and where not to stand in a fight.

[N01H3r3]

The argument is related to my thoughts on Hawkeye's Combat Mastery which gives me chills. I get that he's an awesome archer and a good hand to hand guy, but Mastery? Dunno...I get that archery = one style, mixed martial arts = another style(s), but still...

Thing is, Hawkeye isn't just a peerless archer... he's also an exceptional martial artist in a variety of armed and unarmed styles and a skilled tactician and combat leader. In his time as Ronin amongst the New Avengers, he demonstrated sufficient martial prowess to earn compliments from Iron Fist, who is one of the foremost martial artists on the planet (a list that includes Captain America, who Barton has trained with over the years).

Beyond all that... he's constantly training. He can't stop training, because he's the one mortal man on a team full of superhumans. If he ever stops trying to be the best he can be for even a moment, he stops being deserving of his place amongst Earth's Mightiest Heroes, at least in his eyes, because he's otherwise just a guy with a bow who stands beside gods and monsters.

[Johnny Awesome]

Without having tried the Human Torch, I think I can live with him the way he is for now, even though I think he should have had Combat Expert D8 in his own style.

The main reasons:

1) He flies, which puts him out of reach more.
2) He has great SFX, including Area Effect and Nova Flame (not to be used lightly, but with a few PP it's a pretty devastating ending move).
3) There are a lot of assets, stunts, and complications that immediately come to mind, making him easier to be effective with.
4) Against Cosmic or Tech threats he has an extra die and he'll likely get that about 50% of the time.

It's a little painful just because the big hitters are 5 dice heroes (even Storm), but I'm convinced that he's at least a 4.5 dice guy with some cool touches. That's good enough for me, I think.

[Lindharin]

Let's take this beyond just the Torch. A lot of melee/weapon based archetypes will have the combat specialty, which can obviously be used on most rolls in action scenes with little difficulty. Tech based supers will have Tech and/or Science specialties that they can easily add to most uses of their power traits. Magical characters can take Mystic, which can easily apply to most rolls with their power traits. Psychic characters get, you guessed it, Psych (or Menace if it fits better) as a specialty that they'll be able to add to most power trait rolls without needing to be overly creative. Many of the core archetypes in a supers game have specialties that directly and easily relate to their power set, and are easy to narratively support when building a dice pool. But there is a class of character that isn't mystic/psychic/tech/melee/weapon based, that to some extent are lacking an equivalent specialty to call their own. The Torch falls into that group, but so do a lot of others.

Looking at it another way, these characters lack a specialty trait to represent their skill with their powers. Say you have two characters who have the same trait, like an energy blast, and the trait is identical - the same strength, same benchmarks, same die sizes, etc. One character has practiced with his power, knows how to best use it, etc. The other has not, and is much less skilled in using it. In part, that is represented by SFX, since the first guy might have more tricks represented by SFX, and maybe a distinction. That's true for everyone, though. Give the same suit of armor to Tony Stark and some random guy on the street, and Tony could justify having both better SFX and a distinction, but he also has a Tech mastery to get the most out of his suit. Other characters don't have a directly related specialty to help round out or distinguish their level of skill and competence with their power set, leaving them just SFX and/or a distinction. They might be able to work in some other specialty if they come up with an appropriate narrative, like Reed using Science because it relates to his action even if it doesn't directly relate to his skills with his powers. There will still be characters who are / should be really skilled with their powers, but not with Science or Acrobatics, etc. and they'll have the toughest time being represented mechanically.

Does it break the game? Not in my opinion. Does it short change characters who fall outside the melee / mystic / psychic / tech themes? Yes, at least a little, but probably not enough to get worked up over. I am curious whether it was left out deliberately, or if it would break anything if it got added as a house rule.

[jaif]

I think there's a different way to view this: it's a game, and you're the writer of the character. If you want a combat expert die, then find the right milestone and work for it.

Joining the Avengers

I'm not a brat on Reed's team anymore, I'm a member of the mightiest super hero team on the planet. Time for me to grow up and go to work.

1xp - Anytime I take a combat action without using my flame powers.
3xp - Anytime I chose to pass up a transition scene to practice my combat skills.
10xp - When I win a combat scene without using flame powers at all.

Something like that.

-Jeff

[Johnny Awesome]

You missed the point: Martial Arts shouldn't have anything to do with it. What you are suggesting is the exact opposite of what is being suggested.

[Cam]

He's suggesting a Milestone that will generate the XP required to add a new Specialty. It's a very good idea and makes it narratively interesting.

For what it's worth, we've given the Human Torch Acrobatics Expert d8 in the Civil War datafiles. He should not, however, have Combat Expert, unless you plot that storyline out. There's no indication that he's ever been disciplined enough to master any fighting styles, including one that uses his flame powers.

Cheers,
Cam

[Beast]

Acrobatics Expert is a good choice. Because he can use that in conjunction with his powers. And it's more fitting than a Combat specialty. Great idea, Cam.

[MidnightBlue]

I wasn't talking about Black Widow and Wolverine in a Player vs. Player way. I was more worried about Player A (Human Torch) feeling outclassed (ie. dice envy) by Player B (Wolverine) in most combat situations.

To me, the whole who-should-get-what-specialty and other traits is entirely subjective so I'm not going to argue either side of this point.

I could see an argument for giving every character that puts on the spandex Combat Expert. I could also see restricting it to characters with formal training in combat. Either way, it's subjective.

But the quote above, I definitely see that as a valid concern for any good Watcher. Looking out for the fun of your players...good on you for that.

However, maybe instead of looking at it as a concern, maybe you should use it as a tool.

I've ran games where I had a hard time getting creative responses from my players... getting them to give me anything more than, "I swing again."

If a player feels that he's not getting enough of the spotlight, based on dice pools or otherwise, then ask him/her, "Okay, then tell me how you'd change this problem."

In the end, it's the player's character...encourage him/her to get creative with that character.

As many have stated, the narrative makes ALL the difference.

I've said it before, I'll keep on saying it, I don't care how many dice you can potentially put into a dice pool. If you can't narrate HOW you are doing it, then you DON'T get the dice.

You can help in that way as Watcher too. If you feel that your Wolvie player is getting more screen time than the Human Torch, then start planning for the Human Torch. Throw in some flying enemies that HT has to deal with and other obstacles like that.

And as Spatula said...if you disagree with a representation of a datafile, talk with your table and just change it. You have that power.

I do caution you though. The more things you just add to a datafile, the less creative a player might be with what he already had.

Good luck with your game!