Doom Pool: D12 ever ?

[Cam]

The consensus opinion of my regular group is that this is the worst rule in the book - possibly the one genuinely bad one - and we've dropped it. Because its real practical effect is, the player-heroes only win whenever the Watcher decides to let them win. (That is, the Watcher finally decides to stop buying herself permanent Doom Dice.)

Note how this choice is entirely supported by the rules as given. As is not spending 2d12 to end a scene. In almost every instance I've made sure that any friction-causing mechanics are not crucial to play, but exist as choices that can be left out of play.

Cheers,
Cam

[Supplanter]

The consensus opinion of my regular group is that this is the worst rule in the book - possibly the one genuinely bad one - and we've dropped it. Because its real practical effect is, the player-heroes only win whenever the Watcher decides to let them win. (That is, the Watcher finally decides to stop buying herself permanent Doom Dice.)

Note how this choice is entirely supported by the rules as given. As is not spending 2d12 to end a scene. In almost every instance I've made sure that any friction-causing mechanics are not crucial to play, but exist as choices that can be left out of play.

Cheers,
Cam

Absolutely. The great thing about pulling those two provisions out is there are NO hardwired knock-on effects of doing so. They're not "well if you change this you need to change that" situations. Just yank 'em out and go! (Whereas, I like the "two free power traits from any set rather than one from each" mod, but then you do have to consider what to do about the Versatile SFX, the relative up-powering this gives minor villains and mobs etc.)


Jim

[Battlechimp]

The consensus opinion of my regular group is that this is the worst rule in the book - possibly the one genuinely bad one - and we've dropped it. Because its real practical effect is, the player-heroes only win whenever the Watcher decides to let them win. (That is, the Watcher finally decides to stop buying herself permanent Doom Dice.)

Really? I haven't found that to be the case. I can add all the dice I want to in a roll, but I'm still capped at 2 Result & 1 Effect unless I want to burn the doom pool to up it. So adding in 4d10 pre-roll and then paying out 4PP to put those 4d10 back just means the hero I just gave 4PP to is going to bust out a massive result roll and waste whatever they're up against. I have to actually burn dice from the doom pool for it to be meaningful.

And handing the player any sizable amount of PP is just asking for a butt whooping. Maybe my players are just scarier with plot points, but even giving someone like Cyclops 4 plot points is going to result in eating a result 30 d10 effect before stepping up the effect. And god help me if I've given them those plot points on an attack, because now they know what they have to aim for target number wise.

[Supplanter]

Really? I haven't found that to be the case. I can add all the dice I want to in a roll, but I'm still capped at 2 Result & 1 Effect unless I want to burn the doom pool to up it. So adding in 4d10 pre-roll and then paying out 4PP to put those 4d10 back just means the hero I just gave 4PP to is going to bust out a massive result roll and waste whatever they're up against. I have to actually burn dice from the doom pool for it to be meaningful.

And handing the player any sizable amount of PP is just asking for a butt whooping. Maybe my players are just scarier with plot points, but even giving someone like Cyclops 4 plot points is going to result in eating a result 30 d10 effect before stepping up the effect. And god help me if I've given them those plot points on an attack, because now they know what they have to aim for target number wise.

Pre-roll on an attack? That sounds about right. But post-roll* on a defense, then pay to keep the DDs you "spent" to include more dice in your total, is a pretty cost-free way to nullify a player-hero's attack, and maybe even buy an effect die on her into the bargain. Yes, she'll have more PPs now, but she just acted and it may be awhile before she acts again. Meantime, you've protected your villain from harm, done stress to her, and have exactly as many DDs as you had right before spending them.

I think if you want to keep that up, you can outlast your player, on average. If not, the limit case involves Exalted-level dice pools in both hands, which I confess does not appeal.


Jim

* Likely a combination of a pre-roll die or two plus more post-roll dice.

[Battlechimp]

Pre-roll on an attack? That sounds about right. But post-roll* on a defense, then pay to keep the DDs you "spent" to include more dice in your total, is a pretty cost-free way to nullify a player-hero's attack, and maybe even buy an effect die on her into the bargain. Yes, she'll have more PPs now, but she just acted and it may be awhile before she acts again. Meantime, you've protected your villain from harm, done stress to her, and have exactly as many DDs as you had right before spending them.

I think if you want to keep that up, you can outlast your player, on average. If not, the limit case involves Exalted-level dice pools in both hands, which I confess does not appeal.

First, yeah, defense is where it's at.

Second, just to be clear... are you handing out a PP after spending a doom die to keep an extra die for result or effect? The 1 PP for putting a doom die back only works on extra dice bought before the roll. You're still burning out your doom pool; the only difference is you're handing out 1 PP to roll and keep each extra die before removing it.

Third, yes it may be a while before that player goes again but that may not be a bad thing for them... defense is where it's at. Even if you totally take them out, they're going to start the next scene sitting on a fad wad of PP to counter act the fact you fiated them to faceplant, and that lets them do the trick back to you.

Fourth, PP are typically worth a d8 and often a d10 and since villains can't use doom dice to buy extra traits from a category the PP are a tad more powerful. I've found it's hard to outspend them over the long haul.

[Supplanter]

Second, just to be clear... are you handing out a PP after spending a doom die to keep an extra die for result or effect? The 1 PP for putting a doom die back only works on extra dice bought before the roll. You're still burning out your doom pool; the only difference is you're handing out 1 PP to roll and keep each extra die before removing it.

Oh wow. Going by a strict reading of OM16 you are absolutely correct. The only time you can pay a PP to keep a DD, according to the text, is when it's added pre-roll. So my direst scenario from my previous post can't happen.

Now I have to reconsider the more limited case, combined with an effort to overcome my burning hatred of large Doom Pools.

Third, yes it may be a while before that player goes again but that may not be a bad thing for them... defense is where it's at. Even if you totally take them out, they're going to start the next scene sitting on a fad wad of PP to counter act the fact you fiated them to faceplant, and that lets them do the trick back to you.

Hm. I can't decide if I should consider this issue separately from my problems with how healing actions work in MHRP. Probably, because it's already connected with my maxiDPphobia, which I already decided to put aside here. And if we assume the hero is stressed out, she's now got D6 trauma but no stress.

So I'm left with, the hero has extra PPs, but the DP is at least as big as it was before she earned them, because that's how she got the PPs.

I think I'd have to play out a session or two where the Watcher always buys the pre-roll DDs back into the pool to see how it works. In our early sessions with the GA game, the Watchers didn't go that far. Intuitively it's a pre-roll doom-die budget that compounds to infinity. And in practice, it felt wrong to pretty much all of us. But it might not be truly abusive. It might just be tedious.

Fourth, PP are typically worth a d8 and often a d10 and since villains can't use doom dice to buy extra traits from a category the PP are a tad more powerful. I've found it's hard to outspend them over the long haul.

Which is good!

What's the long haul, though? I think very few combats involving 4-5 PCs should last more than 3 full turns. After that they start to drag. A boss fight can go 4 rounds and maybe 5, but I think that's a pretty hard upper limit. (Not counting running battles that involve location and opponent changes like, say, parts of The Raft in breakout, or a fighting tour of 1984 Manhattan our All-Star Marvels campaign took last week. The variety buys you a little more time.)


Jim

[Cam]

Battlechimp's absolutely right. The PP to recover the doom die trick only applies to that use of doom dice. In other cases you're spending doom dice to use rolled dice (either to keep extra effect or include more dice into the total) and so forth. Those spent doom dice don't come back.

Cheers,
Cam

[salsa]

Second, just to be clear... are you handing out a PP after spending a doom die to keep an extra die for result or effect? The 1 PP for putting a doom die back only works on extra dice bought before the roll. You're still burning out your doom pool; the only difference is you're handing out 1 PP to roll and keep each extra die before removing it.

Oh wow. Going by a strict reading of OM16 you are absolutely correct. The only time you can pay a PP to keep a DD, according to the text, is when it's added pre-roll. So my direst scenario from my previous post can't happen.

Now I have to reconsider the more limited case, combined with an effort to overcome my burning hatred of large Doom Pools.

That's exactly what I meant, why do people choose to ignore the brazilian?

You can keep the doom die you've just added to a pool if you grant that player a PP. That way you can make things hard and reward at the same time.

[vitruvian]

And if we assume the hero is stressed out, she's now got D6 trauma but no stress.
Jim

Wait, wait, wait.... don't have the OM here with me at work, but doesn't the D12 Stress die only vanish at the beginning of the next scene (usually a Transition Scene), not the next action?

Not only is that how I'm recalling the rule, but after all, if somebody has Healing SFX or some similar way of effectively helping you recover, that's what they're trying to step down, and you probably want even reaction rolls to be handicapped by that D12 Stress so that you're at least as encumbered as somebody who's just short of being stressed out.

[EldritchFire]

And if we assume the hero is stressed out, she's now got D6 trauma but no stress.
Jim

Wait, wait, wait.... don't have the OM here with me at work, but doesn't the D12 Stress die only vanish at the beginning of the next scene (usually a Transition Scene), not the next action?

Not only is that how I'm recalling the rule, but after all, if somebody has Healing SFX or some similar way of effectively helping you recover, that's what they're trying to step down, and you probably want even reaction rolls to be handicapped by that D12 Stress so that you're at least as encumbered as somebody who's just short of being stressed out.

You are correct. Stress sticks around until the next transition scene. If you're stressed out, it goes away but you're stuck with trauma. If they pulled their punches, it becomes d6. All other non-stressed out stress is stepped back by one.

-EF