Dice from each powerset tweak

[Cam]

You can include one asset in your dice pool without additional PP cost. If there were two applicable assets in play, for example, you would need to spend 1 PP to include the second one in your dice pool.

Cheers,
Cam

[MidnightBlue]

[Qualifier (I should make this a part of my signiture or something): Every player and Watcher should get what they want out of the game...official or houseruled, whatever it takes. It is never my intent to poo-poo another's idea, especially if it gives them something they want in the game.

My comments are just thoughts and questions on the subject and maybe a different outlook.]


Like the scene distinction topics, I feel the need to ask, has One Power Set vs. Two Power Sets been a real problem in games played so far?

Has there been such a difference between those characters with only one power set (with or without Multipower/Versatile) and those with multiple power sets to require errata or a rules change?

I'm just not seeing it from my reading and my admittedly limited play.

It seems like all of these topics are worrying about "Maximum Dice Pool Potential," but narration is going to decide when and if a player/Watcher can use all potentially available dice.

Just because a character has two power sets, or even ten for that matter, it doesn't mean that he/she is going to get cause to use them at the same time.

Besides, there are a number of factors besides number of power sets that will also determine higher max dice pool potential.

-I mean, what if you have a guy with only one power set, let's say Battle Armor, but this guy also has Tech Master D10. Whenever this guy uses a die of Battle Armor, he's probably also going to be adding his Tech Master specialty...but that can be D10, 2D8 or 3D6. That's a pretty variable dice pool with potentially four free dice from a power set and specialty.

-Compare that with a guy that has two power sets, but no applicable specialties when he uses them most of the time. That guy is only tossing these two free power set/specialty dice.

Again, the narrative is the great equalizer.

If I have a player character with 10 power sets, I'm going to be on him to really give me some GREAT narrative whenever he wants to start piling in the dice from those power sets.

As a player and Watcher I'm going to keep in mind that any dice pool building rules only allow for "free" dice when the narrative okays it.

The only guaranteed dice pool is your Affiliation die. Everything else is left to narrative.

That's why I just don't see this as a problem.

I think the RAW works well enough for me in this regard.

But I hope all others find what they are looking for too.

[N01H3r3]

Just because a character has two power sets, or even ten for that matter, it doesn't mean that he/she is going to get cause to use them at the same time.

Agreed with this - a lot of it depends on how the character is built and the situations they end up in. I'm playing in a long-running Marvel campaign that's just switched from Mutants & Masterminds to MHR, so we converted all our characters over. My current character, Prometheus (the Titan from Greek myth) has two power sets - one representing his 'natural' abilities as a Titan (strength, durability, regeneration, etc) and the other representing the sceptre he carries that contains a spark of the flame stolen from Olympus (magic, fire control, etc). It's not particularly common to employ a dice from each pool unless I'm doing something particularly elaborate.

On the other hand, one of the other characters in the group is styled on ancient Roman gladiators, and has one power set covering his physical capabilities and another covering the net and trident he wields; because of the way the character is built, he's commonly using a die from each power set, at least when he's in hand-to-hand combat.

It seems to come down more to character concept than anything else, but there is another factor in play as well. A character with two power sets that work together a lot of the time, will excel in those situations, while a character whose power sets cover different areas will be able to function effectively in a wider range of situations. Wolverine is the best there is at what he does, in part because his Distinctions, Power Sets, Specialities and Milestones all synch up to make him that good... but he'll likely find himself feeling out of place in many other circumstances because he has such clear and singular focus.

[Battlechimp]

Like the scene distinction topics, I feel the need to ask, has One Power Set vs. Two Power Sets been a real problem in games played so far?

Yes.

I tried to stay vague on my actual position to avoid derailing talking about the issue itself and staying more on the topic of if there was something that might break and fall off if I tried this that I just wasn't seeing... But I guess I'll dig into the meat of why I feel this sort of modification is necessarily.

The actual power gap is hard to judge as the probabilities of the dice pool are hard to intuit. So far in about 10 games there hasn't seem to be a HUGE gap - surprisingly the most commonly PW0Ned characters have turned out to be Iron Man and Wolverine who both have really nice 2 set power load outs and one of the most effective characters has turned out to be Cyclops. But in the first 2 cases I think it was because the player got unlucky at the wrong times and in the second it's because Area Attack is an amazing force multiplier if used properly.

However, what I HAVE seen is the players expending a fair bit of effort to try to wrangle the 2nd power set die into their narratives. Like a LOT of effort at times.

It's also worth mentioning that they do create Assets, and there actually has been a fair bit of generating Assets for others.

So for me this is less about statistically balancing heroes and more about removing the feelings of pressure to maximize the dice pools. By having a second power fill the slot of assets they gain a choice of how to maximize (without spending PP) and aren't trying to cram BOTH in to hit it. Additionally single power set players don't feel like they're being shorted a die (which Cyclops's player has felt at times) that they'll never be able to hit.

EDITED TO ADD: Basically, yes you are limited by the narrative and what you can justify. But that isn't a great tool to use to balance mechanical parts. Though in this case it's less about actual power balance and more about the appearance of that balance and what FEELS right. They always want to bring their A game if possible, and if they're bringing anything less it's because they CHOOSE to tie one hand behind their back because it's amusing or fun or the appropriate thing to do. So they're always going to angle to get the most dice unless they don't want to. It's the always angling I need to cut down on.

This group has cut their teeth on Feng Shui, 7th Sea, Exalted, Weapons Of The Gods... being gonzo creative is in our wheelhouse. What appears to be the limit of the narrative is NO limit at all. But it does slow things down as folks think too hard or the first idea is too far out there and they try again. And if all the players are equally creative and equally engaged in the narrative then 2 power set guy is still getting an extra die and that just feels unfair.

[MidnightBlue]

EDITED TO ADD: Basically, yes you are limited by the narrative and what you can justify. But that isn't a great tool to use to balance mechanical parts. Though in this case it's less about actual power balance and more about the appearance of that balance and what FEELS right. They always want to bring their A game if possible, and if they're bringing anything less it's because they CHOOSE to tie one hand behind their back because it's amusing or fun or the appropriate thing to do. So they're always going to angle to get the most dice unless they don't want to. It's the always angling I need to cut down on.

This group has cut their teeth on Feng Shui, 7th Sea, Exalted, Weapons Of The Gods... being gonzo creative is in our wheelhouse. What appears to be the limit of the narrative is NO limit at all. But it does slow things down as folks think too hard or the first idea is too far out there and they try again. And if all the players are equally creative and equally engaged in the narrative then 2 power set guy is still getting an extra die and that just feels unfair.

Ha!

It just goes to show...different tables, different problems.

What you describe as a problem is exactly why I like the MHR system as written.

I'm tired of games with a long list of bonus/penalty calculations, but with action statements of, "I hit him again."

I WANT my players to think about the narrative and give me whatever they can wheel and deal. If trying to angle two power set powers into a dice pool causes them to think a bit more about what and how they are doing something, then I call that a success!

[Supplanter]

I think what people like Battlechimp (and I) find is that the principle that everything is fun up to a point and unfun beyond that point can end up impinging on creative narration under the RAW handling of dice from power sets. (As gaming-buddy and Playgroup A Watcher Mister Bill once said when we were agreeing that Prime Time Adventures feels a lot like being in the writer's room for a TV show in good and bad ways, "You know, they pay people to do that.")

Where your argument breaks down, MB, is that in defense of the status quo you keep holding up a virtue that isn't exclusive to the status quo. "Creative narration" doesn't disappear from the game under Battlechimp's tweak proposal or my tweak proposals. Play does not collapse to an unbroken sequence of "I hit it. I hit it again." I swear to you it does not.

We're just talking about ways to make it less of a chore sometimes.


Jim

[MidnightBlue]

We're just talking about ways to make it less of a chore sometimes.

Jim

And that's cool. I guess I'm not seeing where adding more rules makes things easier or less of a chore, though.

But again, I've got the game I want already.

Do what you can to make yours!

[Battlechimp]

Further, it doesn't really impinge upon narrative creativity except in the case of two powers and an asset. Then it caps how much you can skim for free without dipping into your PP. Really, this is effectively the same limit as not getting to use both your flight & your energy blasts from the same power set without using a PP or using a SFX.

It re-balances the dice pool cap to 8 dice instead of 9 dice before spending PP or invoking SFX. Single power heroes couldn't hit the 9 die cap no matter what because the die just wasn't there to take.

Basically, two set heroes can lob barely coherent and badly fitting narrative explanations and get 9 dice but single set heroes can throw out amazingly awesome and perfectly appropriate actions and be stuck at 8. Does that seem fair? So regardless of HOW MUCH better that extra die really is, it's still an extra die and it feels like someone is getting short changed.

Players are still encouraged to make things fit in the narrative, because if they don't they just don't get the dice. It just closes the mechanical gap so that if two players of equal narrative skill play characters with different number of power sets there is a less noticeable mechanical difference between the two.

In my particular groups case it's also about removing the perceived pressure to try and max the pool by making the pool easier to max for both single set and double set heroes. Single set players won't feel like they're down a die and double set players have a 2nd place to get a die from to max the pool and won't try as hard to contort their actions. Ultimately I hope it improves the narrative.

EDITED - just want to clarify what I'm counting for the die pool numbers above: Affiliation, Distinction, Power #1, Power #2, Specialty, Push/Stunt/Resource, Asset, Stress, Complication.

[Reinhardt75]

I don't have much play experience yet...just some playtesting with friends and a fair bit of reading...but I know that first impressions of my players (once I roll this game out) will certainly count for how easy it is to get them hooked into the game.

The first impression once you get the core mechanic down is "More power sets=More dice=Better character" Now, as mature and experienced and story driven as my players may be...I still would hate for someone to be less willing to pick up the character with one power set because of the perceived imbalance.

I also don't know that this would be a "one more rule to learn" sort of tweak...all they need to know is "you get one die from power sets" and when explaining assets, one example would be picking up a chair to hit someone with in the bar, while another would be picking up another power from your second set to use in combination.

[Supplanter]

I
I also don't know that this would be a "one more rule to learn" sort of tweak...

Right. The various tweaks that are out there - Battlechimp's; "any two power traits free"; "only one power trait free"; "two power traits free and one specialty OR one power trait free and two specialties" - aren't extra rules so much as substitute rules.

Meanwhile, Battlechimp: How do you see your tweak interacting with existing datafiles in the Basic Game? They already address the issue by giving one-set heroes Multipower or Versatile. Use those datafiles with the tweak and one-set heroes end up with a one-die advantage over two-set heroes, no?


Jim