Justification of Dice Rating

[chaosnet]

Or, you could have someone that has this power trait:

Control My Emotions - D12
*Acts as Durability for Emotional Conflict

SFX: Regain Control - Spend 1 PP to recover Emotional Stress, or step back Emotional Trauma -1.


There...an Emotional Wolverine!

[MidnightBlue]

Another thing that I think is important to keep in mind regarding the Mental/Emotional stress options is that unless a character is built with those damage dealing options in mind, it will probably be harder for the player to justify adding many of his/her dice.

So it isn't always a matter of, "Well, I can't hurt him physically, I guess I'll just roll this big dice pool and call it Mental/Emotional Stress instead."

No, a player will likely have to make a go at the non-physical stress attack with a reduced dice pool or have a REALLY good and creative narrative to add dice to the pool.

"You don't have Psych or Menace...how are you adding a Specialty die to the pool again in an effort to inflict Mental or Emotional Stress?"

"I'm using my Business Master die to bewilder the Hulk with the text of the Internal Revenue Service tax code!"

Eye rolling may begin...now!

[EldritchFire]

But that's my point. Should you have to justify why a gang with machine guns/hand guns whatever can not damage Iron Man as they roll D6, but suddenly get D12 and can give Iron Man D12 Stress.

You're still confused on this point. They can cause stress to Iron Man.

But the description of Superhuman Durability says Bullet proof. How can you say that a guard may get a lucky shot and damage Iron Man's armour when the D10 durability rating says it is bullet proof.

Bulletproof doesn't mean "can't cause stress." Just because the bullet isn't going through the armour doesn't mean it's nt causing stress to the wearer of the armour.

But we had this whole discussion about Wolverine ripping off a Sentinel's arm and if he could base don Strength.

Link?

So how can you say sorry but the Hero onyl has SuperHuman strength so he can not hurt or damage the Super Sentinel with Godlike Durability (D10 Vs D12), but a Guard with a rifle D6 is able to damge Iron Man when Iron Man has Superhuman Durability.

That would make the game system broken.

That's never been said in the OM as far as I'm aware. Are you perhaps confusing the rules for Targeting Traits? Some traits can't be reduced or eliminated by lower die-sized traits. Some can. This is in no way related to dealing stress.

Let me put it this way. How can oyu justify a Hero not being able to lift an object such as a Car becuase they have normal strength, but allow a man in the street with a gun roll a Dice Pool and still have the ability to cause Stress (Phsyical stress) on Iron Man - makes no sense.

As has been said before, stress does NOT equal damage. It's stress, fatigue, drops in adrenaline, concern for ones well being, etc. Stress is not the same thing as damage. That's the preview of trauma.

-EF

[Spatula]

Another thing that I think is important to keep in mind regarding the Mental/Emotional stress options is that unless a character is built with those damage dealing options in mind, it will probably be harder for the player to justify adding many of his/her dice.

So it isn't always a matter of, "Well, I can't hurt him physically, I guess I'll just roll this big dice pool and call it Mental/Emotional Stress instead."

No, a player will likely have to make a go at the non-physical stress attack with a reduced dice pool or have a REALLY good and creative narrative to add dice to the pool.

"You don't have Psych or Menace...how are you adding a Specialty die to the pool again in an effort to inflict Mental or Emotional Stress?"

"I'm using my Business Master die to bewilder the Hulk with the text of the Internal Revenue Service tax code!"

I agree with this. Most characters aren't set up to resist mental/emotional stress, but then most characters aren't set up to dish it out, either.

I also find it odd that someone would complain about defeating a Hulk-like character through mental/emotional manipulation. The Hulk is a prime example of a character that gets hit with that sort of thing a lot, because most characters cannot compete with him on a physical level.

[chaosnet]

I think the main issue was the narrative that i used to simulate the culmination of the Emotional Stress Out.

The hulk-like villain has physically struck the character several times for D10s and D12s, but the character had PP to fuel his physical invulnerability.

When the Emotional conflict came in, the first hero (the non invulnerable one) started mocking the villain's mutated appearance and the fact that he was a monster. The invulnerable hero followed up with emotional stress by stating that 'you can never beat me'.

The invulnerable hero ended up stressing out the villain with 'you can't beat me' and i narrated that the hulk-like villain gave up because he had struck the invulnerable hero SEVERAL times for no effect and basically bought into the concept that the invulnerable hero couldnt be beaten.

As a result he stopped fighting and questioned if he was truly an "Engine of Destruction" as one of his distinctions outline.

[MidnightBlue]

In the example that Chaosnet just gave, I could see letting a player add in the Durability power trait in an Emotional Stress causing action due to the narration.

"I'm using my invincibility to my opponent's attacks show that he can't beat me and he should just give up."

Perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

What I like about the three different types of Stress is that you can get creative in how you deal with an opponent.

Most characters shouldn't go toe-to-toe with the Juggernaut. Doing so is the definition of "the hard way."

But can you psyche him out...or trick him...or mind control/mind blast him?

Let's give those a go!



In the same vein...if I'm going up against Professor X, I'm not going to try to use mental attacks on him if I can help it. Nope...I'm going to disable the breaks on his wheelchair and push him down a hill. THAT'S how you deal with the Prof!

[salsa]

In the example that Chaosnet just gave, I could see letting a player add in the Durability power trait in an Emotional Stress causing action due to the narration.

"I'm using my invincibility to my opponent's attacks show that he can't beat me and he should just give up."

Perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

This is professional usage of RAW.

"I'm using my Business Master die to bewilder the Hulk with the text of the Internal Revenue Service tax code!"

Eye rolling may begin...now!

In the same vein...if I'm going up against Professor X, I'm not going to try to use mental attacks on him if I can help it. Nope...I'm going to disable the breaks on his wheelchair and push him down a hill. THAT'S how you deal with the Prof!

I like to curse when I'm laughing so hard at something, I keep refraining myself from doing it here at the forums, but one of these days I'll let one slip just because of MidnightBlue... ROFLMAO.

[Supplanter]

I think the main issue was the narrative that i used to simulate the culmination of the Emotional Stress Out.

The hulk-like villain has physically struck the character several times for D10s and D12s, but the character had PP to fuel his physical invulnerability.

When the Emotional conflict came in, the first hero (the non invulnerable one) started mocking the villain's mutated appearance and the fact that he was a monster. The invulnerable hero followed up with emotional stress by stating that 'you can never beat me'.

The invulnerable hero ended up stressing out the villain with 'you can't beat me' and i narrated that the hulk-like villain gave up because he had struck the invulnerable hero SEVERAL times for no effect and basically bought into the concept that the invulnerable hero couldnt be beaten.

As a result he stopped fighting and questioned if he was truly an "Engine of Destruction" as one of his distinctions outline.

So remember in the other thread how I said, as nicely as possible, it was your fault? This time it's the other guy.

The narrative logic of that action scene makes perfect sense. And it's a Watcher character giving up in this way - you as Watcher own that character's mindset. This is not a broken system. I won't say it's a broken player, but it sounds like one who is pretty determined not to like the way this game does things.

Now, when it comes to the hypothetical of emotionally stressing out a player-hero, some considerations:

* give the player a lot of sway in characterizing the emotional stress - anger, sadness, fear, love? The stress is a mechanical fact; its resonance is open to interpretation.
* dice for dice. When I played Luke Cage in Breakout, I made it a point of honor to stress Carnage out emotionally. Hey, he was trying to do the same thing to me! We each rolled Menace Master at each other a lot, but we also included our "physical" power traits - they're the thing that made us menacing! But fair's fair: If Luke gets to add his Superhuman Strength to his action roll to do emotional damage, Carnage gets to add his Superhuman Reflexes (or whatever) to his reaction roll. And so on.
* If Mister Picky-Pants doesn't like suffering emotional stress, he can always spend a PP to shift it to another stress track.


Jim

[chaosnet]

I LIKE the Emotional Stress component, but it seems a bit wonky to me on certain levels.

I am playing my character, The Mocker, a street level vigilante that uses his quick wit (his secret id is a stand up comic) and his quicker fists to make short work of villains.

He notices the the Scorpion and a couple of mooks moving crates into the back of a truck.

Mocker, unseen, swinglines down and kicks the Scorpion in the side while opening up with "OMG, who still wears green anymore?" attempting to enrage the feeble-minded Scorpion and emotionally attack him.

Mocker - D10 Solo, D8 ("I've got a Million of them") Distinction, D8 Enhanced Reflexes (from his Street Level Vigilante set), D6 for his Swingline (from his Assorted Tools set) and D8 for his Combat Expert. D10+3D8+D6

Mocker generates a 24 (by spending 1 PP to add an extra die to his total) with a D10 effect.

Scorpion unfortunately generates a 12 with a D8 effect.

The Mocker's D10 Emotional Stress is stepped up +2 to D12+ which is enough to "Stress Out" old Scorpy. The narrative used by the Mocker was to enrage him, so what narrative would apply to an Enraged Scorpion that is Stressed Out (meaning that he won't fight)?

I get physically stressed out (extreme fatigue, KO'd, etc), and mental stressed out, but if the Mocker's goal was to enrage him and he stress the Scorpion out emotionally then will he still want to take a whack at the Mocker with his big ol' tail?

[Doc_Nova]

I LIKE the Emotional Stress component, but it seems a bit wonky to me on certain levels.

I am playing my character, The Mocker, a street level vigilante that uses his quick wit (his secret id is a stand up comic) and his quicker fists to make short work of villains.

He notices the the Scorpion and a couple of mooks moving crates into the back of a truck.

Mocker, unseen, swinglines down and kicks the Scorpion in the side while opening up with "OMG, who still wears green anymore?" attempting to enrage the feeble-minded Scorpion and emotionally attack him.

Mocker - D10 Solo, D8 ("I've got a Million of them") Distinction, D8 Enhanced Reflexes (from his Street Level Vigilante set), D6 for his Swingline (from his Assorted Tools set) and D8 for his Combat Expert. D10+3D8+D6

Mocker generates a 24 (by spending 1 PP to add an extra die to his total) with a D10 effect.

Scorpion unfortunately generates a 12 with a D8 effect.

The Mocker's D10 Emotional Stress is stepped up +2 to D12+ which is enough to "Stress Out" old Scorpy. The narrative used by the Mocker was to enrage him, so what narrative would apply to an Enraged Scorpion that is Stressed Out (meaning that he won't fight)?

I get physically stressed out (extreme fatigue, KO'd, etc), and mental stressed out, but if the Mocker's goal was to enrage him and he stress the Scorpion out emotionally then will he still want to take a whack at the Mocker with his big ol' tail?

If I were the Watcher for such an action, the easiest means of narration would be something like this:

"The Scorpion snarls in rage, his face turning a brilliant and rewarding shade of crimson. He contorts his body wildly, swinging that massive, blunt tail. "Greeargh! How dare you talk to me that way!" he howls as his enraged swipe sails wide of our taunting hero and strikes the far side of the very truck he and his moods had been stocking. With the protesting groan of metal, the loaded vehicle heaves on its wheels, tilting, teetering, then toppling on to our green-clad arachnid who now finds himself hopelessly pinned."

Or something to that effect.