Hulk Smash! --How Do You Save Civilians?

[Supplanter]

Bill is a nice man!

I want to unpack my objections to the official line/emerging consensus a little. And then, probably, Bill and I would each like to continue exploring alternatives to the official line, since we each run games in which there may be civilians in danger.

Thing One: I really am bothered by reducing (fictional) people to reflections of my (fictional hero's) mood. This is related to some stuff I wrote last year about what I think "conflict resolution" is and isn't good for. (Bonus Cortex Plus content you can use!)

Thing Two: In a superhero game with a different mechanic for civilian endangerment, my hero choosing to save civilians represents - heroism! Altruism. Responsibility. In a superhero game with the official-line mechanic for civilian endangerment, my hero choosing to save civilians is just another form of self-defense. I lost the hero part.

Thing Three: From the Watcher side, if it's just another attack by the villain, I've lost a tactical option I'd like to have: extra things the heroes have to worry about besides the villain's turn. That is, if I'm a Watcher, one thing I want from civilian endangerment is to keep the heroes from ganging up on the Big Bad quite yet.


Jim

[Cam]

Relatedly, we have some bonus rules content on running timed scenes based on complications worsening and the heroes' need to address both those AND the presence of villains that would work well for this. That's going to be included in the Annihilation Event Book.

I should note that I do like multiple ways to handle things in the game, AND that the game as written can flex sufficiently to handle those. I especially appreciate house rules with stated objectives and reasons for why they're being made, since those offer insight to me as a designer on the way the game is being played and what we could potentially address at a later date.

Cheers,
Cam

[Venshad]

I liked the way this topic is being discuted.

I also came to a conclusion that making a Scene Distinction "Innocent Bystanders" AND using Hulk's turn to attack the heroes, both physicaly (punching Wolverine in the face) and emotionaly (punching a bystander in the face).

The distinction should be removed (alongside the capability to inflinct emotional stress) if the heroes do X for Y turns (I can't remember now the rules for removing distinctions ), representing diverting Hulk's attention while other heroes remove the bystanders from danger, for the rest of the scene.

[Mailer33]

More defense for scene distinction and emotional track on Hulk Smash

Someone above said that doesn't work, because you want the damage to be collateral rather than intentional, and you don't want Hulk directly attacking civilians.

So you narrate it differently--Hulk is rampaging and smashes his fists on the street in rage--a crack opens up and a lady is about to fall in. Spiderman happens to be near, so he can save the lady with a reaction roll or take emotional stress.

Narratively, collateral damage is occurring--but mechanically this is an emotional attack on Spiderman.

Remember, this is not a simulation game--the narrative controls the mechanics rather than other way around.

As far as scen distinctions Being weak because you can use Hulks distinctions instead--you're over thinking it. You are using the civilian distinction because you want to endanger civilians, and you want to mechanically represent the civilians. Sure, you could just use a different distinction, but why? Youre endangering civilians--so use the scene distinction because it is appropriate.

[Supplanter]

Remember, this is not a simulation game--the narrative controls the mechanics rather than other way around.

People really need to lean less on this oversimplification, IMHO.


Jim

[Mailer33]

@Jim

I'm not really trying to lean on the narrative concept--But there is an unusual, narrative "philosophy" of play in this game, and I was just trying to sum that up in the simple line you quoted without having to type out an essay about it.

In my view, scene distinction and emotional attacks are sort of the "default" or "by the book" method, and I think in play, it will work out better than it seems "on paper", and also without bringing in additional mechanics or rules clutter

However--I fully see the merit in what you are saying with civilians being a specialized "character" that has a dice pool the heroes must reduce to "save" them. Just like the method I described, it has some pros and cons.

If I were to use your concept of civilians as dice pool, I would probably do it like this:

Throng of Endangered Civilians--pool of 5d6--players may take actions to save civilians or evacuate them to reduce dice pool--when dice pool is gone, all civilians are saved--however, if the Watcher Spends 2d12 from the doom pool, then the scene ends, and any remaining dice in the "endangered civilian" pool were injured or killed in the collateral damage

I wouldn't actually give the "civilian" dice pool it's own turn--it's really more of a task to accomplish than it is a coherent "character"--the growing doom pool will take care of endangering them--and if doom pool gets high enough, heroes will fail to save some or all of the civvies.

As the doom pool grows, narrate this with descriptions of more citizens coming into harms way, and more crumbling infrastructure, etc.

Edit

Players would deal with this by either devoting their actions to reducing civilian pool, or trying to stop Hulk outright before Doom Pool gets to big. I suppose hulk would use his turn to either attack players or, create destruction complications?

[MidnightBlue]

-when dice pool is gone, all civilians are saved--however, if the Watcher Spends 2d12 from the doom pool, then the scene ends, and any remaining dice in the "endangered civilian" pool were injured or killed in the collateral damage.

Mailer33, I think you finally just gave an example where I can see that I'd make use of the 2D12 Watcher scene ending option. Coupled with Cam's mention that there will be a "timed" scene mechanic, I think the 2D12 can fill that void.

You let players know ahead of time that time is of the essence and that the rising doom pool will end the scene unfavorably if the players don't solve the dilemma first.

Once the 2D12 hits the Doom Pool, the Watcher can spend it to end the scene...time's up!

Huh...I could find that very useful in a lot of circumstances.

Thanks for stoking the creative fires!

[Mailer33]

Thank you--I agree that Jim's concept with my doom pool clock tweak is a pretty elegant way to handle it.

I still slightly favor scene distinction and emotional track mainly because it's less rules management in a fairly dense rule set--that and, you know, one mechanic to rule them all.

But I will definitely be using Jim's mechanic for various things (including saving civs and burning buildings), I just probably won't use it as often as the simpler scene distinctions.

Tonight I'm going to roll through a battle where I try out the scene distinction method to see how it works, and I'll post the play by play.

[Grimmshade]

Don't forget that with the Scene Distinction civilians, they can still be rescued or beaten down. All it requires is attacking the Distinction. My heroes rescue civilians all the time in my home game, and they do it by removing the scene distinction.
Villains attack, menace, and threaten people the same way. MJ or Aunt May as a Scene Distinction can be used for all sorts of things by Villains and heroes alike. They can also be removed form the scene by removing the distinction, either by being rescued or being KO'd, or kidnapped.

I'll admit, I do come from the rules simplification side of things.

[MidnightBlue]

I'll admit, I do come from the rules simplification side of things.

I couldn't always say it, but now...yeah, I'm right there with you.

Life's too short and busy to worry about fiddling with unlimited detail when I could be playing.