Hulk Smash! --How Do You Save Civilians?

[Dunlaing]

That, and the fact that a devious Watcher will spend a doom dice to bring more "endangered citizens" screaming out of a nearby Hotel. (buy a new scene distinction)

It bothers me that in this scenario, I'm expecting the players to really engage with the idea of defeating this scene distinction in order to accomplish a goal, and then I, as the Watcher, can negate all of that by spending a d6 out of the Doom Pool.

Primarily, it's the deprotagonization I'm worrying about, but the tactics aspect bothers me as well. I already think engaging with the scene distinction is a suboptimal method of saving the civilians (I'm assuming they'll be saved once the Hulk has been defeated), but going through all of that just to reduce the Doom Pool by a single die? That's so far below suboptimal that it's anti-optimal.

[Mailer33]

This is pretty interesting. Question: Let's say I'm playing Captain America and I miss my roll. Under your system this means emotional stress to Cap and injury or death to the civilians, right?

Now per the rules, I spend a Plot Point to make the damage physical stress rather than emotional stress. Narratively, could that represent Cap sacrificing his body to keep the civilians from harm?


Jim

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I kind of imagine Captain America raising his shield and taking the full force of the flying car to save the bystanders.

To Dunlaing,

Maybe I phrased that poorly. I wouldn't spend a doom point and bring in new civilians just to be an A-hole to the players. But in the highly populated Vegas Strip, there are going to be a lot of bystanders around, and it probably will take more than removing a single distinction to save them all

Also, as the fight moves "down the road" they might encounter all new innocent bystanders--another good reason to buy some more in

I would also do it just to stack on more drama--they think they've saved the civilians, but oh no, here come more! Then they maybe save them too and now the Hulk is finally worn down and the doom pool depleted--a victory hard fought and well won.

EDIT

But...Most of the Civilian Saving in my Vegas Strip example actually happens as hero reactions, that is where the real back and forth of the collateral damage happens--Hulk smashes, Heroes try to mitigate the damage with their reaction. Removing the distinction itself is only one of many options. As a player, I would personally go for the old "lure hulk away from the strip" method I described using complications.

[konate]

This is pretty interesting. Question: Let's say I'm playing Captain America and I miss my roll. Under your system this means emotional stress to Cap and injury or death to the civilians, right?

Now per the rules, I spend a Plot Point to make the damage physical stress rather than emotional stress. Narratively, could that represent Cap sacrificing his body to keep the civilians from harm?


Jim

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I kind of imagine Captain America raising his shield and taking the full force of the flying car to save the bystanders.

in the highly populated Vegas Strip, there are going to be a lot of bystanders around, and it probably will take more than removing a single distinction to save them all

Also, as the fight moves "down the road" they might encounter all new innocent bystanders--another good reason to buy some more in

I would also do it just to stack on more drama--they think they've saved the civilians, but oh no, here come more! Then they maybe save them too and now the Hulk is finally worn down and the doom pool depleted--a victory hard fought and well won..

Neat ideas! It works so well, it seems like the design was intentional.

[Mailer33]

Neat ideas! It works so well, it seems like the design was intentional.

The design was intentional--Everything I am talking about in my two posts about Hulk's Rampage on the Vegas Strip uses the rules as written (RAW). It is possible I have gotten some rules wrong cause I'm still new to the game, but as far as I can tell, I'm doing it by the book.

EDIT

Also, thanks for the compliments. I have a lot of neat ideas for Complications, Assets, Distinctions, and the beloved Doom Pool--its a lot of what has gotten me excited about the game.

[Spatula]

It bothers me that in this scenario, I'm expecting the players to really engage with the idea of defeating this scene distinction in order to accomplish a goal, and then I, as the Watcher, can negate all of that by spending a d6 out of the Doom Pool.

Primarily, it's the deprotagonization I'm worrying about, but the tactics aspect bothers me as well. I already think engaging with the scene distinction is a suboptimal method of saving the civilians (I'm assuming they'll be saved once the Hulk has been defeated), but going through all of that just to reduce the Doom Pool by a single die? That's so far below suboptimal that it's anti-optimal.

Creating a scene distinction is a d8, actually.

I don't know that I agree with your analysis. Sure, you can save the bystanders by beating the Hulk. But how many rounds is that going to take? Meanwhile, almost any hero can win a roll vs the doom pool with a D8 or better effect - especially if it's done right away when the doom pool is low! Getting rid of scene distinctions is much easier than beating your average super-villain. It's definitely easier than taking down the Hulk.

So the Watcher makes the doom pool smaller to create a new distinction - one player takes can of the bystanders before they get into trouble, removing it, while everyone else concentrates on the main threat.

[Mailer33]

I don't know that I agree with your analysis. Sure, you can save the bystanders by beating the Hulk. But how many rounds is that going to take? Meanwhile, almost any hero can win a roll vs the doom pool with a D8 or better effect - especially if it's done right away when the doom pool is low! Getting rid of scene distinctions is much easier than beating your average super-villain. It's definitely easier than taking down the Hulk.

So the Watcher makes the doom pool smaller to create a new distinction - one player takes can of the bystanders before they get into trouble, removing it, while everyone else concentrates on the main threat

If I'm understanding you correctly, your concern is that it will be really easy for one hero to save the civilians by removing the distinction, while everyone else just plain old fights the Hulk.

There are a few other factors to consider:
1. There are actually THREE collateral damage distinctions to remove--Endangered Civilians, Casinos, and Traffic Jam. Hulk can smash any of these to cause emotional stress. So spiderman removes the Endangered Civilian distinction--Next turn Hulk puts his fist throught the MGM Grand's giant lion statue, lol. And narratively--Casino distinction is almost impossible to remove. (Sue Reed could do it by turning them invisible)

2. In my method, most of the actual excitement of saving civilians is occuring in HERO REACTION rolls to Hulk's collateral damage attacks. Removing the distinctions is really not the most efficient way to deal with this crisis--but it may be the way the players choose to do it anyway.

3. If the rampage isn't occuring right on the vegas strip, and the only distinctions were, say, "Scared Family" and "fleeing workers", then yes, removing the distinctions might be the best way to do it, and it is fairly appropriate if it happens early in the fight. However, if Hulk is still going strong and you have a big fat doom pool, and you want to see some more civilians in danger--then this is a good time to spend that doom dice to bring in more bystanders.

4. Sometimes the heroes may get lucky and just save the day right at the beginning, and that is okay. But when I rolled out my little test run with the Hulks Vegas Rampage--it played out as a desperate struggle to save bystanders from collateral damage while Spiderman lured the Hulk away from the strip and into the desert. In the end, the Hulk was lured away, but there was a lot of property damage and innocent civilians were killed. They will probably still have to fight the hulk in the desert now, but at least there aren't a lot of civilians around now.

[Archermonkey]

Watcher Turn(Hulk): In a rage, Hulk picks up an SUV, with family still inside, and hurls it through the air at The Luxor Casino. Spiderman is swinging nearby, maybe he can save the SUV and the hotel. (mechanically, this is an attack on Spidermans emotion track)

Spiderman responds by trying to create a big web net to catch the SUV or at least slow it down.

So you build the Hulks dice pool and Spidermans resistance dice pool. Hulk would use scene distinction traffic jam to because he grabbed a car off the street.

If Spiderman fails--SUV flies right on by and crashes right into the Luxor Casino--yes, there is a lot of damage, and people have probably died (narrate level of death and destruction according to size of Hulks effect dice). Spiderman takes emotional stress--he has failed to save lives, he is totally kicking himself for failing even though it is not his fault, cause that's how Spiderman is. If you like, you could even spend a d6 from doom pool to add a new scene distinction (flaming SUV dangling from third floor)

If Spidey succeeds on his resistance roll, the net works, SUV is saved, next turn.

One of the reasons that I love this game is that even in failure you can tell be heroic about how you fail. Can't get the webs spun in time, or they don't hold? Well Spidey was right behind those webs to spin them, and maybe the player spends a PP so that the SUV crashes into him instead. Catching it, he saves the people but takes Physical Stress from the impact instead of Emotional from the harm to the civilians.

[Archermonkey]

This is pretty interesting. Question: Let's say I'm playing Captain America and I miss my roll. Under your system this means emotional stress to Cap and injury or death to the civilians, right?

Now per the rules, I spend a Plot Point to make the damage physical stress rather than emotional stress. Narratively, could that represent Cap sacrificing his body to keep the civilians from harm?


Jim

Hah! Guess I posted too soon.

[Mailer33]

One of the reasons that I love this game is that even in failure you can tell be heroic about how you fail. Can't get the webs spun in time, or they don't hold? Well Spidey was right behind those webs to spin them, and maybe the player spends a PP so that the SUV crashes into him instead. Catching it, he saves the people but takes Physical Stress from the impact instead of Emotional from the harm to the civilians

That's exactly how I feel. The system is so flexible, it can even pull this off:

Say instead of Spiderman and Captain America showing up to stop Hulk's Vegas Vacation--Apathy Man Shows up instead:

Apathy Man
Solo D10
dinstinctions: Cold as Ice, Don't give a crap about anything, Not unless I get paid.

Power Set: Like a stone--Superhuman durability d10, etc d10, etc d8

WATCHER TURN(Hulk):
In a rage, Hulk hurls a car at a nearby crowd of people. What do you do to save the crowd of people so you don't take emotional damage?

APATHY MAN:
What do you mean emotional damage? Apathy Man doesn't give a crap about anything. I just stand there and let it happen.

WATCHER:
Okay, build your dice pool based on standing there and not giving a crap.

APATHY MAN RESIST ROLL:
What? Um...Okay. Solo d10, Doesn't give a crap about anything D8, Durability D10(even though car is soaring right by him, he doesn't even flinch because he knows it won't hurt him).--roll--success! As the car tumbles through the screaming crowd, Apathy Man just shrugs his shoulders and carries on.

WATCHER TURN(Hulk):
Hulk throws another car at some more people.

APATHY MAN RESIST ROLL:
Still don't give a crap, but I do happen to be standing in the way, so the car hits me instead. I don't even blink when it hits me. Dice Pool--Solo, Cold as Ice, Durability. --roll--oopse, I failed. Here's a plot point to turn that emotional damage into physical--car hits Apathy man instead of crowd--not that Apathy Man gives a crap.

[atminnie]

Great examples Mailer. Top notch.

What's wonderful is that story details can easily exist without mechanical representation, but making something a Distinction with a die value basically says, "That thing has become more significant." So even if heroes eliminate the Vulnerable Bystanders Distinction, it's assumed some are still around. Hulk could endanger people even without the Distinction to do so. If the Watcher creates a new Scene Distinction, like more civilians, or a Volatile Gas Station, a SWAT Team, an Aura of Hopelessness, or a Dust Storm, all these are primarily hooks available for everyone to hang their creativity and thus make the scene unique.

The Gas Station may well have been there the whole time, and may even have played into the story, but now the Watcher is spotlighting it as a potentially more significant story point anyone can focus on if it interests them, or just as easily ignore. It occurs to me this is rather like the Watcher providing a subsidy for interacting with certain story elements, "Say, if you interact with this bit of fiction, you can net a d8 or a PP."