Arguments against registration.

[Warmaster_Loberg]

I'm currently running the Civil War event for my players and we're getting close to the "appearing before congress" scene. It's easy to come up with a lot of really strong arguments for registration and a few arguments against.
It seems to me that Captain Americas main issue with registration in the comics were that it was unconstitutional (I'm not from USA so maybe someone could help me understand if this is true or not?) and that asking people that willingly lay their lives on the line for the people and their country everyday to register, is an insult to their honor and places them in jeopardy.

I'm basically asking you guys to help me come up with some strong arguments against registration. I hva thought of a few, but could certainly use a few more.

And one last question. One of my players is playing She Hulk, but she (like most of us in the group) have very little knowlegde of US laws. Does anyone know how she could play upon the law, either for or against registration, or point us towards somewhere we can read a little about the kind of laws that would apply for this kind of situation?

Thanks!

[Nerd King]

I think my group will be 100% anti-registration; simply on the basis of freedom of choice. Why should heroes, who have historically done far more good than harm, saved the world (the univers even) dozens of times over, have to be forced into govermental servitude?

There have been crisises before and registration was never the answer, why now? Why must I be forced to check in with the government when I've proven my good intentions time and again?

Just because I was born differently, have special training or gear or was in a freak accident, why should I be forced into employment for "the man"?

At the end of the day it's an issue of Human Rights, freedom of movement and employment and allowing free will and choice.

The alternative is tantamount to indentured servitude.

But perhaps we're all socialist liberals in my group

(Can't help on teh legal side though - in the UK here)

[igorbone]

Maybe the best way to deal with the legal stuff is make things up as you go? Since no one in the party has any real understanding of what can and can't be done in US law, she just have to sound convincing.

I don't believe the majority of the Marvel author's has a real understanding of the law as written, too...

[Gingerkid88]

One of the major issues is that the government is trying to make costumed heroes reveal their identities, that's bad on so many levels. It could be used as a means to make a super hero army who has to fight our nations wars or be locked up. Also the heroes are being locked up without a "fair and speedy" trial, a natural right in the United States Bill of Rights. In fact look up the American Bill of Rights, with just that you could make some convincing arguments without taking a class on American Government. Just use people's fear of the US government having too much power, fear of what can happen to these heroes loved ones if their identities are revealed.

[Reducto]

I'm trying to remember what Spider-mans and Cables arguments were cause they had a few good ones.
For Spider-man it was along the lines of how can you guarantee the safety and privacy of registered heroes in their private lives, and if heroes work for the government then the government decides what they get involved in and consequently what they don't get involved in. While with the current situation sometimes heroes get involved simple because no one else will.
Cables arguments were less against the registration act and more against the 50 states initiative, they were also more long term concerns. Which is that heroes would become basically superhuman police, leading to a police state.

[Warmaster_Loberg]

Thanks for the replies guys!
I'm currently at work so I cant post a lenghty response, but I appreciate the viewpoints. I'll post my thoughts about these issues later tonight.

[Dunlaing]

The US Constitution, in theory, is a list of things the Federal Government is allowed to do, with a clause saying that anything not covered is not legal for the Federal Government to do. This is probably the most important thing to know about US laws. It doesn't always hold up (many laws are based on very loose interpretations of certain clauses, for instance), but that's the theory.

So, the issues as I see it are:
First, is the Government allowed to discriminate based on genetic traits, training, and use of specialized equipment (which I suppose is debatable,... Mutants aren't on the list of reasons you can't discriminate against someone)?

If so, then by what clause in the Constitution is the Government allowed to require people in the US who are part of that group we just "defined" (with no knowledge of whether they're citizens or not, or even residents) to:

• identify themselves as members of that class and provide their names and addresses (this may be an easy win for anti-registration in court since it seems like a violation of the Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution, which says you can't be forced to incriminate yourself)
• involuntarily provide a service to the Government that is not serving in the Armed Forces (there's certainly no indication that the Initiative is being run by the Department of Defense,... and if it is, then you'd have to defend the constitutionality of a draft that discriminates in who it chooses)

I also think there's a legal issue involved with there not being an actual crime. Generally in the US, to convict someone of a crime, you have to be able to prove that an actual act took place at a particular time and place and that that act was illegal. But the SHRA makes it illegal to BE an unregistered super. So at 12:01am on the day it goes into effect, agents of the Government attack Luke Cage. What act had he committed at 12:01am? The law wasn't in effect prior to that, so it mut have been something he did at 12:01. Is "being bulletproof" an act? Is "being bulletproof without having registered wih the authorities" an act?


I am not a lawyer.

[MidnightBlue]

As others have said, I'm not a lawyer.

I'm definitely not a comic book lawyer. (Trust me...from what little I do know about the law, the comics practice a different system many times.)

A couple of things I wanted to point out.

First, there is a precedent in real world US law for the SHRA...it's called selective service and the draft.

You think it's unfair for supers to get singled out and forced to work for the Feds just because of genetic traits they possess? Well, as a Y chromosome carrying member of the US citizenry, I can say that this is nothing new...having had to sign up for selective service at the age of 18. I'm sure many young men between the ages of 18-25 who were called up for the draft at various periods in our history and shipped off to war could say the same.

There is legal precedent in my eyes for Congress to pass such a law based on other factors than being a boy/man.

There's your She-Hulk argument if she argues FOR the SHRA.

As to the argument that superhero vigilantes revealing their secret ID's could put their lives and their loved ones in danger...she could easily argue that this is no different than the average beat cop or federal agent that puts his life and families' lives on the line by putting on the uniform...if anyone had a grudge enough to want to follow him home or look him up in a phonebook.

I find the arguments FOR registration are easy to come by legally. I think that's why I can see it passing as an inevitability.

I've said it before, but while I hated the idea of registration in the comics, if this were a real world situation...you bet I'd want individuals with that kind of power answerable to someone (I just don't know if the government is where I'd place my faith).

I also think this makes the Anti-Reg side all the more "romantic" as an idea and why I'd see most of my heroes fighting for it. It isn't a matter about what is legal...but about what "feels" right.

So Anti-Reg is fighting a losing battle in the courts and halls of Congress. Sounds like a great time to take the cause to the hearts and minds of the people. See if things can be changed on a different front.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject.

I love a lot of what everyone has posted before me. Good thoughts all around.


Side note: there was a comment about the legality of locking individuals away without due process. That will be a great point later on in the game...maybe for shedding light on the abuse of the system, but that hasn't happened at the point that the OP is talking about right now.

Still...a great point to keep in mind for the future of the game. Maybe a way to get some bad publicity out to the public against the Pro-Regs.

[chaosnet]

Realistically a government has the responsibility to protect those in it's charge. Super heroes and villains are walking weapons of mass destruction and would need to be either controlled or destroyed. There is no way that a government should allow, say a Human Torch, to exist outside of the fold of the government. It doesnt matter how many times they saved New York, the US, the World or the Galaxy...it doesnt change the fact of what they are.

If I, Jim, decided to build thermonuclear bomb in my house and say that "Im going to use it for good in case we get invaded by Cuba like in Red Dawn!", there is no way that I'm not getting snatched up by the government, briefed, debriefed and maybe jailed for being an irresponsible threat.

No hero should be above the laws, look at Superman. He and Batman get into it often enough because Batman will bend the laws to their breaking points whereas Superman won't. These arent just US laws, but Supes has been seen to adhere to the local law of other countries even when he believed them wrong.

Register...It's the Law!

[Nerd King]

Realistically a government has the responsibility to protect those in it's charge. Super heroes and villains are walking weapons of mass destruction and would need to be either controlled or destroyed. There is no way that a government should allow, say a Human Torch, to exist outside of the fold of the government. It doesnt matter how many times they saved New York, the US, the World or the Galaxy...it doesnt change the fact of what they are.

But - the key point there is "realistically" - this is the Marvel universe with it's own history and axioms of behaviour.

Prior to SHRA Earth-616 has had a perfectly workable, self-regulating, community of super beings. Whether that would work in the real world is immaterial - in the real world high doses of radiation leads to slow and agonising death, not super powers - it worked within the tennets of the setting & genre. I assume a number of heroes would simply questionm why change now? Suspicion would be aroused as to what the aggenda was - why do the "powers that be" decide that now is the time for registration?

Yes, in the real world I'd want some sort of legislation to protect me and mine from the abuse of powers. But does just having the *potential* for destruction mean someone must be forced into govenrment employment? And that's the other key issue with SHRA - it's not *just* registration (governments maintain records on their people all the time) it's involuntary servitude - an equivalent to the real world "draft" that's been referenced in other previous posts.

Take a trained hunter - they have the skill and the capability to shoot accurately and consistently, a potentially deadly skill. Should their firearm be registered? Most would agree to yes. Should they be forced to use their skills to take down targets that the government selects as a threat? Most people ((I hope) would argue no.